Monday, June 12, 2006

Assassinate Ma?

The Taipei Times reports that illegal radio stations have threatened the life of Mayor Ma of Taipei:


The Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) yesterday denounced the broadcasting of a threat to assassinate party chairman Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九) by unlicensed radio stations in southern Taiwan, demanding the premier and police conduct an investigation.

The threat to take Ma's life was broadcast by pro-independence radio stations in southern Taiwan, coinciding with the chairman's planned attendance at an anti-President Chen Shui-bian (陳水扁) rally in Kaohsiung on Saturday.

The event was canceled due to bad weather.

KMT legislative caucus members demanded that Premier Su Tseng-chang (蘇貞昌) order the National Police Agency (NPA) to conduct an investigation into the case and thereafter offer a clear description of its efforts to apprehend those guilty of fomenting the call to murder Ma.

Meanwhile ESWN points out that there is actually little, if any, evidence that such threats were actually made:






According to Ming Pao, there are 171 underground radio stations across Taiwan. The historical development of these radio stations was intimately tied in with the relationship between the totalitarian regime and the opposition. Since the regime controlled all mainstream media either financially or through the censor, the unlicensed hidden radio stations became the voice of the opposition. Today, mainstream media are open to all political views, but the underground radio stations are still around. The underground radio stations are often still politically engaged and the speeches are possibly more than what the licensed mainstream media are willing to go.

That was the general background. But what about the specifics of this case? Nobody has even identified the exact station, locale or time when those calls were made. The Central News Agency only reports that the Kaohsiung city police has received reports that many low-power underground radio stations aligned with Taiwan independence were inciting its supporters to form "dare-to-die" squads to assassinate Ma Ying-jeou. That was as specific as it got.

There's been a pretty constant flow of death threats from Blue politicians toward Green ones. Lien Chan called for Chen's assassination after an election loss, and recently Ma himself warned that Chen would "die". This atmosphere might have contributed to the attempted assassination of Chen by a Blue supporter in 2004. Turnabout might seem fair play, but Taiwan is not served by anyone calling for the death of politicians on the island. Meanwhile the underground radio stations are pooh-poohing this as simply more pro-Blue propaganda.

The article also highlights another issue not often spotted: that Ma may be widely popular, but the obverse of that popularity is widespread hatred of him, especially in the south and among Deep Greens, who can see beneath the crunchy-sweet candy shell to the sour pro-China filling inside.

UPDATE: 6/15 Ma has apologized for his nasty comment saying that Chen would die a horrible death, which he blamed on his anger at the alleged lack of integrity in the Chen Administration. Funny, he didn't seem too upset when he went around the country stumping for corrupt local politicians....meanwhile Lien Chan's son has taken up the cudgel, saying that Chen would end up like Saddam Hussein...

UPDATE: 6/19 The Foreigner has a great post on this issue:


The news on Thursday was that Ma Ying-jeou apologized for declaring that president Chen would be "toppled" and meet with a "foul death" if he didn't resign from office. I was going to give him credit for that here, but then I noticed that he did so only after CHARGES were filed against him. In essence, Ma said, "So sorry -
now go arrest somebody else." Not sure if that really deserves much of a pat on the back.

Meanwhile, Friday's papers informed us that four of the accused underground radio stations were raided and three of their talk show hosts were arrested. One of them asked why she was being arrested, while pro-KMT stations that advocated assassinating President Chen or former president Lee were left untouched by the law. Good question. Doesn't necessarily mean that these three shouldn't have been arrested, but it's still a good question.

A better question is what's to be done with Ma. Politically, it's impossible to arrest him. You'd have riots on your hands. President Chen would be accused of being a dictator, at home and abroad.Arrest Ma? Can't be done.

The alternative, however, is also unpalatable. It's patently unfair to punish three common folk while letting the chairman of the KMT get off scot-free. To do so does violence to the principle of Equality before the Law.

As I said: What to do, what to do?



28 comments:

bizofknowledge said...

It seems like there is never a dull moment in Taiwanese politics! Although threatening someone's life does seem a little over the top, even for Taiwan...

Anonymous said...

Mr. Turton,

You say that 'Mr. Ma warned Chen would die.' If you heard the Chinese in his speech, he was saying that if he didn't resign, he would "死得很難看" which doesn't mean someone is literally going to die. The English equivalent is roughly, "You're going to go down, and it isn't going to look pretty." People use this phrase to describe humiliating defeats, not people literally dying.

Your other comment that I find somewhat slandering: "Ma is an ideologue even worse than Chen, given to shooting off at the mouth, and not nearly as intelligent as Chen is."

Obviously a matter of opinion. If Chen were really that intelligent, he wouldn't be in the mess that he is in now, and he wouldn't have approval ratings below 20%.

I see that you have been relatively quiet regarding all the scandals hitting the DPP recently - which is exactly what the pro-DPP 民視 TV station does, and what Mr. Chen is currently doing as well. After making an apology and saying that he'll follow the law, Mr. Chen has subsequently not talked with the public or reporters for the past 20+ days and counting. He has only made 2 appearances, 1 with the AIT chairman, and the other to inspect flood areas, after which the Presidential Office issued press releases. His wife isn't rebutting the accusations either because she claims to be sick and in "shock" due to the scandals.

If you really want an informed view, I would suggest looking at various Chinese language media sources. If, on the other hand, your Chinese isn't up to par, how do you expect to have a balanced view of Taiwan? The English language newspapers only cover a small % of the news, and of the local political news they cover, it's only another % of that as well.

I used to be pro-green when I first came here 8 years ago, but during this past year I'm now more or less independent because of Mr. Chen's actions. There are quite a few disenchanted pro-greens up here in Taipei. I don't know about central & south though.

The media in the US and in major urban areas is disproportionately Democratic - there's a reason for that. The media in Taiwan and in Taipei is disproportionately pro-blue for a reason, as well.

Evan

Anonymous said...

"The media in Taiwan and in Taipei is disproportionately pro-blue for a reason, as well." It is because the media has long been under KMT's control and, perhaps, in China's hands.

Scott Sommers said...

One of the annoying things I've noticed about political blogging in Taiwan is the way that comments are used. Commenters claiming to be Pan-Blue foreigners are much more likely to post annonymously or without e-mail/website links.

Michael Turton said...

You say that 'Mr. Ma warned Chen would die.' If you heard the Chinese in his speech, he was saying that if he didn't resign, he would "死得很難看" which doesn't mean someone is literally going to die. The English equivalent is roughly, "You're going to go down, and it isn't going to look pretty." People use this phrase to describe humiliating defeats, not people literally dying.

Yes, well, perhaps it is a poor choice of metaphor, eh? Especially with the longstanding calls for Chen's death and death threats that the Blues have made par for discourse in Taiwan today.

Your other comment that I find somewhat slandering: "Ma is an ideologue even worse than Chen, given to shooting off at the mouth, and not nearly as intelligent as Chen is."

Obviously a matter of opinion. If Chen were really that intelligent, he wouldn't be in the mess that he is in now, and he wouldn't have approval ratings below 20%.


Of course! Approval ratings are a sign of intellect! I never knew. So when Bush was at 60%, he was a genius, and now that he is at 29%, he must be a bonehead.

Look, Ma failed the bar exams that Chen passed. Simple as that. Ma was from an old KMT family and has had every advantage, Chen clawed his way up on merit. Simple as that. Chen is so far ahead of Ma intellectually it is not even close. That in fact may well be Chen's problem -- he has a tendency to be highhanded because he is so much brighter than everyone else.

I see that you have been relatively quiet regarding all the scandals hitting the DPP recently - which is exactly what the pro-DPP 民視 TV station does, and what Mr. Chen is currently doing as well. After making an apology and saying that he'll follow the law, Mr. Chen has subsequently not talked with the public or reporters for the past 20+ days and counting. He has only made 2 appearances, 1 with the AIT chairman, and the other to inspect flood areas, after which the Presidential Office issued press releases. His wife isn't rebutting the accusations either because she claims to be sick and in "shock" due to the scandals.

How can such accusations be rebutted? They are made wildly, without evidence or accountability for their maker? How do you "rebut" slander?

I have commented on the DPP scandals, but those aren't the real issues here. As I have said before, I never had any illusions it was going to be different (I used to work for the independence movement, and was disillusioned on that score rather harshly some years ago). Rather, the way to look at this is in light of the ongoing Blue strategy to paralyze the island's governance and bring down its democracy. What are the Blue goals? How will they get them?How is Ma going to handle the divisions within his own party, the alliance with Beijing, and the drive to get the PFP back into the fold? In that regard David at jujuflop just pointed out something very ominous in a private email that I hope he'll be blogging on soon.

The whole purpose of the scandals is to distract public attention from the fact that the Blues have gutted the island's governance. When was the last time you thought about the fact that the Control Yuan is paralyzed and cannot function? Taiwan has no government. As long as the Blues can keep the public focused on Chen, no one will notice how deeply they have screwed Taiwan. It is a brilliant strategy, and it has worked to perfection.

If you really want an informed view, I would suggest looking at various Chinese language media sources. If, on the other hand, your Chinese isn't up to par, how do you expect to have a balanced view of Taiwan? The English language newspapers only cover a small % of the news, and of the local political news they cover, it's only another % of that as well.

I look at the Chinese sources every day, but most of what passes for "analysis" in the Chinese papers is trash. Some of them, like Apple Daily, simply make shit up. The television media are unspeakable.

I used to be pro-green when I first came here 8 years ago, but during this past year I'm now more or less independent because of Mr. Chen's actions. There are quite a few disenchanted pro-greens up here in Taipei. I don't know about central & south though.

What actions of Chen can you specifically cite that have made you "independent?"

The media in the US and in major urban areas is disproportionately Democratic - there's a reason for that.

Perhaps on your planet. On mine the media in major urban areas in the US is pro-Establishment -- center-right in economics, moderately liberal in social policy. It is quite naive to view the major papers of record as "pro-Democratic." They all regularly endorse Republicans for high office, and have supported all the current President's criminal activity, from the invasion of Iraq to many of his judicial appointments.

Michael

Anonymous said...

Like what Evan said above: the phrase "死得很難看" does not mean that anyone will die a horrible death. I have used that phrase on others and others have used that on me, in a joking manner, when we spoke to each other, but without the intention to get anyone murdered. There are a number of phrases like that, such as "殺千刀", which does not literally mean that a person shall be slashed one thousand times, or "死相", which also does not mean that a person looks like death himself. Just as the saying “son of a bitch” also does not mean to state that a person is the descendant of dogs. It is a figure of speech.

I am not Evan, by the way, but I agree with his views.

Tim Maddog said...

Michael, good rebuttal.

For the benefit of Evan (and "not-Evan"), let me add this.

Evan wrote:
- - -
You say that 'Mr. Ma warned Chen would die.' If you heard the Chinese in his speech, he was saying that if he didn't resign, he would "死得很難看" which doesn't mean someone is literally going to die.
- - -

Beside Ma's original words being "會死得非常難看" (well, online reports number about 2-to-1 in favor of "非常"), do you mean to tell me, Evan (and not-Evan, for that matter), that there's no way to say the same thing in Chinese without using the word "死"? Feh!

And please, Evan (and not-Evan, as well), don't pretend that you've forgotten the context which includes previous KMT chairman Lien Chan's "人人得以諸之," writer Tu Shih-san's threats to execute Frank Hsieh and his family (defended by the pro-blue media as "performance art"), and all the other pan-blue threats and actions (including such things as the "gas bomber") which followed a failed assassination attempt on Chen's life. You should also remember that the KMT has a long history of killing Taiwanese people -- from the 228 Incident of 1947 to Chen Wen-cheng to the Lin family and more -- so it's only natural to translate "死" as "die, dead, or death."

Why is it that the pan-blues can so easily make so many groundless accusations in the media against innocent people? (Evan has no idea what "slander" is, e.g., Twu Shiing-jer and the "舔耳案" [including fake "witnesses" and "evidence"], Wang Yu-cheng's "recycled funeral rice" [with faked videotape "evidence"], Li Ao's fake CIA "evidence" that Chen wanted to injure or kill Annette Lu, and all the other cases.) People fear for their lives when it comes to countering these kinds of lies.

I'm impressed at the courage of those who have come out to say that the story of Wu Shu-jen and the Sogo vouchers was made up out of whole cloth by Li Tao. Let's see how that plays out in the coming days if we get to see some real evidence of anything.

And in the interest of fairness, I see in today's Taipei Times that a host from one of those Kaohsiung radio stations that was raided admits that some callers made such assassination threats, but says that he discouraged such talk. I'm still waiting for evidence that the callers were pan-green supporters. If the Kaohsiung Prosecutors' Office is interested in finding out, I'm sure it would be pretty easy. At this point, we don't know if they were pan-blue supporters looking for an excuse, but with their leaders making assassination threats against Chen publicly, I have strong suspicions.

But please, if any pan-blue supporters want to talk about enforcing the law when it comes to such matters, let's start with the most serious violators and work downward, shall we?

As far as Ma's so-called apology goes, it comes on the same day that he's comparing Chen Shui-bian to Yuan Shih-kai, quickly extinguishing any chance of convincing rational observers of his "sincerity."

Tim Maddog

Anonymous said...

I am the “not Evan” guy above, and I’d like to state a few forgotten facts:
In 2004, right before the presidential election, a group of individuals who claimed to be Taiwanese revolutionaries, discussed for the assassination of Lien and Soong and made arrangements to carry out this plan (they were busted by the police). In 2005, a group of pan-green supporters attempted to stop Lien Chan’s car on his way to the airport by bumping their vehicles to Lien’s. Upon Lien’s return from his visit, there were also calls for assassination on him. And let us not forget, Mr. Huang Wen-hsiung, who was an advisor of Chen Shui-bian, fired (but missed) on Chiang Ching-Kuo during his visit to New York. (Of course, never mind the TSU candidate who asked her supporters to “deliver death to Li Tao”; or that Chiu Yi received death threats for uncovering scandals pertaining to DPP; or Li Ao receiving bullets in mail). Mr. Turton had said above that he has no illusion about the pan-green’s capacity for corruption, and hopefully you can understand that, in addition to corruption, the pan-green is also quite capable of assassination.

Now, the acts identified above are truly “assassination attempts.” “死得很難看” or “死得非常難看” on the other hand, is nothing more than a figure of speech, and anyone who finished high school in Taiwan could probably tell you that this phrase has been said perhaps millions of times without anyone dying because of it. And, son, if you think that phrase is a call for assassination, then I am afraid you need (1): some additional Chinese lessons, or (2) a serious reality check. Professional politics may be a little out of your league.

Michael Turton said...

In 2004, right before the presidential election, a group of individuals who claimed to be Taiwanese revolutionaries, discussed for the assassination of Lien and Soong and made arrangements to carry out this plan (they were busted by the police).

Really? I can't recall that tale. Do you have anews link? It would make a great blog story...

In 2005, a group of pan-green supporters attempted to stop Lien Chan’s car on his way to the airport by bumping their vehicles to Lien’s.

Manifestly not an assassination attempt.

Upon Lien’s return from his visit, there were also calls for assassination on him.

...by who? Senior party leaders?

And let us not forget, Mr. Huang Wen-hsiung, who was an advisor of Chen Shui-bian, fired (but missed) on Chiang Ching-Kuo during his visit to New York.

Too bad, eh? Might have saved a lot of Taiwanese lives. Of course, that was more than thirty years ago. Killings were routine here, then. If the KMT chooses to go around killing Taiwanese, you can hardly blame the Taiwanese for trying to kill them back. Fortunately those days of murder and freedom fighting are over.

(Of course, never mind the TSU candidate who asked her supporters to “deliver death to Li Tao”; or that Chiu Yi received death threats for uncovering scandals pertaining to DPP; or Li Ao receiving bullets in mail).

Big difference, though, is that none of these involved senior party leaders. Chen, Su, Yu, and Lu don't make death threats, even in idiom. Unlike Lien Chan and Ma.

in addition to corruption, the pan-green is also quite capable of assassination.

There have been no killings by pan-Greens since the advent of Taiwan's democracy. The democracy side has not killed anyone since the bad old days when the KMT was murdering people here wholesale, and that was strictly tit for tat. The KMT, however...well, Wang Kang-lu's death was a bit suspicious.

Now, the acts identified above are truly “assassination attempts.” “死得很難看” or “死得非常難看” on the other hand, is nothing more than a figure of speech, and anyone who finished high school in Taiwan could probably tell you that this phrase has been said perhaps millions of times without anyone dying because of it. And, son, if you think that phrase is a call for assassination, then I am afraid you need (1): some additional Chinese lessons, or (2) a serious reality check.

The issue is not that Ma is calling for Chen's assassination. It is that the atmosphere that Blue leaders create, with their longstanding ties to murder -- all of them should be in jail, including Ma -- and the constant flow of references to the deaths of their enemies, results in concrete action -- like a pan-Blue supporter taking a shot at Chen.

Professional politics may be a little out of your league.

Perhaps, but people who leave anonymous insults on other people's blogs are too pathetic to make such judgments.

Michael

Michael Turton said...

or Li Ao receiving bullets in mail).

Forgot to add: Those bullets probably came from the same place Li Ao's that CIA report claiming Chen had himself shot came from -- Li Ao's imagination.

Tim Maddog said...

"Not-Evan" wrote:
- - -
In 2005, a group of pan-green supporters attempted to stop Lien Chan’s car on his way to the airport by bumping their vehicles to Lien’s.
- - -

How about some attention to details? I think they tried to "block" Lien's motorcade, but did they actually "bump[]" his car? I recall watching video of this. It was raining, and the cars were moving at high speeds. Any sort of bump would be incredibly dangerous for people in either vehicle.

Not-Evan spoke of the phrase "die a horrible death":
- - -
...this phrase has been said perhaps millions of times without anyone dying because of it. And, son...
- - -

Can not-Evan/not-my-parents be honest enough with himself to admit that saying it to a friend before a game of "Go Fish" is completely different from a party leader saying it to his political enemy -- and doing it in a forum where it will be repeated in the papers and on television for millions to see and hear?

Spot the difference, and bring on the links.

Tim Maddog

Anonymous said...

Okay, I'm anonymous, but I'm not Evan... or even not-Evan. And I'll end any speculation by saying that I'm 18 years old, immigrant from Taiwan into the US since age 9, and I was raised pro-blue. The article describing:

In 2004, right before the presidential election, a group of individuals who claimed to be Taiwanese revolutionaries, discussed for the assassination of Lien and Soong and made arrangements to carry out this plan (they were busted by the police).

I believe that was in 世界日報, because my parents do not get any other newspaper and I can't have possibly heard it anywhere else since at the time I was too young to care about politics beyond what I read occasionally in the newspapers when I was bored.

And even as a pro-blue family member, I have to say that said newspaper is horribly biased and even I am getting sick of the anti-Chen sentiments and insults in it, and I don't even like Chen.

Tim Maddog said...

"Not Evan/Not Not-Evan" tried to negate himself:
- - -
Okay, I'm anonymous, but I'm not Evan... or even not-Evan.
- - -

There would seem to be a serious existentialist dilemma here -- even if you were "anonymous #3."

- - -
And I'll end any speculation by saying that I'm 18 years old, immigrant from Taiwan into the US since age 9, and I was raised pro-blue.
- - -

Why am I not surprised at all by this?

Yep, it is "not-Evan":
- - -
The article describing:

In 2004, right before the presidential election, a group of individuals who claimed to be Taiwanese revolutionaries, discussed for the assassination of Lien and Soong and made arrangements to carry out this plan (they were busted by the police).

I believe that was in 世界日報, because my parents do not get any other newspaper and I can't have possibly heard it anywhere else since at the time I was too young to care about politics beyond what I read occasionally in the newspapers when I was bored.

- - -

... and having become interested in it (if "becoming interested" means "noticing your pan-blue-media feeding tube") for, like, less than two years (being that in 2004 you knew little and didn't care), you know all about this stuff now, right?

- - -
And even as a pro-blue family member, I have to say that said newspaper is horribly biased and even I am getting sick of the anti-Chen sentiments and insults in it, and I don't even like Chen.
- - -

This shows some potential. Since you're reading this blog, at least you'll finally get to see some other perspectives from people who don't approve of assassination threats. But I won't hold my breath waiting.

By the way, did you "spot the difference" yet?

Tim Maddog

Taiwan Echo said...

Again, why all pan-blue supporters like to talk anonymously? It's still a mystery to me. People spent time reading your post, answering your words, trying to get points cross for better mutual understanding. But all pan-blue guys don't even repay a respect with, at least, a name that people can recognize them. And a registration on blogger not only taking just one minute but also it's free.

Every time I saw those pan-blue anonymous posters, I can't help think of the following:

In many events made up by pan-blue, there were always some 'secret witness' who claimed to know or see what pan-blue accused. When they were "used" by the pan-blue to provoke public opinion, they always came up anonymously and covered their faces. And when came to actual cross examination by legal approach, they all disappeared and no where to be found. Examples are the doctor showed up for the "舔耳案", who claimed to be Tu's higher classmate, was found "there's no such person in that hospital", and the famous "福小姐" -- all pan-green knows about that to such an extent that "福小姐" has become a symbole of "fake witness"; and the "奇美小護士" that was claimed by Chen wen-chien as the witness of 2004 319 shooting but never showed up later.

Pan-blue "produced" fake witness in almost every one of their accusation, yet pan-blue supporters are not just believing in that shit again and again. They actually live it !!!

C'mon suckers !! (oops, I don't really mean to call you guys suckers! It's just a figure of speaking) Come out of your closet and give people some respect !!

Taiwan Echo said...

I have been in USA for more than a decade but I NEVER want to read 世界日報. I was told that it is owned by same people who owns the "communist paper in Taiwan"-- 聯合報. Its political view about Taiwan is like the official political propaganda broadcast by KMT or even China government. People who reads only 世界日報 would most probably biased to the bone.

For your information, even the newspaper 大紀元 run by Chinese is much fairer on Taiwan than 世界日報 is. And it's free. Paying bucks to buy biased view in order to get yourself polluted, that doesn't look wise to me...

Taiwan Echo said...

The following article describes how pan-blue supporters beat up a car passing by in the recent pan-blue public gatherings.
http://www.anti-media.tw/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=380713#380713

The car was driven by some one who just wanna get home. He past close to where pan-blues gathered. He honk his car because those demonstraters blocked the road illegally. Then the pan-blue supporters close by rushed to beat the driver and the car. This "blue violence" was conviniently ignored by media.

It reminds me of those "gansters dressed in black" appearing in almost every pan-blue gatherings. I still remembered vividly how they beat up an old pan-green supporter in a "ganster style" (圍毆) --- many of them surrounded that old guy and beat him up, yet some others standing a little farther away to block possible help. It was broadcast in TV to the public, yet none of them got arrested.

Where were all you anonymous people when that happened ? Or maybe you were one of those who dressed in black ?

Anonymous said...

I am the “not Evan” guy. The following is in response to Mr. Turton’s post:

>>>Really? I can't recall that tale. Do you have anews link? It would make a great blog story...

聯合新聞網10日報道,台灣4名男子涉嫌在網路上散布建立台灣國,及集資買槍械暗殺連宋等消息,9日被台灣刑事局偵九隊約談到案;

刑事局偵九隊上網巡邏,發現有網友籌組以“台灣武裝建國團”為名的網路家族,成立主旨為“用武力建立獨立的台灣武裝建國組織,用鮮血和熱情捍衛台灣建國,用武力消滅所有叛國者及其家屬,建立全新的台灣國,做真正的主人”。
這個網路家族還通知支持者留言討論“如何暗殺連、宋、馬三人”,宣稱要招募熟悉化學毒物的專業人才加入。

http://www.cna.tv/stories/print/view/16244/1/b5/.html


>>>Manifestly not an assassination attempt.

In some parts of the world, it is known as attempted vehicular manslaughter.


>>>...by who? Senior party leaders?

Nope.

晚間國民黨也在高雄舉辦「真誠修憲懇託晚會」,現場擠進5千名支持者。由於情資顯示,有人趁機要暗殺連戰主席,因此連主席南下的行程在前天臨時喊卡。不過三位副主席到場,包括刑警、霹靂小組,650名警力全場警戒,氣氛緊張。

http://www.tvbs.com.tw/news/news_list.asp?no=blue20050511223153


>>>Too bad, eh? Might have saved a lot of Taiwanese lives…

Probably not as many lives as A-bian’s recall would’ve saved. If he managed to aggravate the PRC, domestic political parties, Taiwan’s No. 1 ally and the most pro-Taiwan administration in a long time, the French, Singaporean and numerous other friends Taiwan once had, then having A-bian taking a hike would probably be better for Taiwan in the long run. Maybe Annette Lu can do a better job. At least she doesn’t have a wife or a son-in-law.


>>>…none of these involved senior party leaders. Chen, Su, Yu, and Lu don't make death threats, even in idiom. Unlike Lien Chan and Ma.
>>>The issue is not that Ma is calling for Chen's assassination. It is that the atmosphere that Blue leaders create….

If you’d like, I can call my nephew in middle school. He will be glad to explain to you what the phrase “死得很難看” means. The police would be very busy if they have initiate investigations based on phrases like that. And, gosh, if I get a quarter every time I hear that phrase, I just might have enough money to buy some Taiwan Development stocks.

And, if you are so interested in the words of “senior party officials,” then, could you please do me a favor?

Could you please advise Mr. Chen Tan-shan, the former foreign minister, that it is considered impolite in this day and age to touch someone else’s scrotum? And, next time you run into Mr. Chiu Yi-ren, member of the National Security Council, could you please ask him what he meant when he said about Taiwan “humping the leg” of the Americans? I mean, is he going to hump your leg? Or, what did Mr. Wu Nai-ren, A-bian’s campaign advisor, meant to say with his phrase about DPP’s “cutthroat strategy”? Is he going to cut anyone’s throat? (I can get you a neck bracelet if you need one). What did A-bian mean with his reference about “son of a turtle”? Did someone run a check on his pedigree and find anything amphibious? Or, did Ms. Wu, A-bian’s wife, mean it when she said that she’ll step out of the politics if she ever received any money from Mr. Chen You-how? Was she serious or just kidding?

Boy, talk about political rhetoric.

On the other hand, I am especially interested in the phrase “the democracy side.” Since this side, as its name suggests, is apparently in favor of democracy, would this side like to play by the majority rule, and join the people in asking A-bian to resign, considering that he has an approval rating of about 18%? (TSU said it is more like 5%). If not, well, considering that Mr. Ma is ahead of Mr. Chen in approval by about 40-50%, I’d like to think that the democracy side would agree that Mr. Ma would be more representative of the Taiwanese people?


>>>Perhaps, but people who leave anonymous insults on other people's blogs are too pathetic to make such judgments.

So it is okay for someone to post under a pseudo name, but not okay for the one who was challenged to respond? The democracy side sure is interesting.


>>> Those bullets probably came from the same place Li Ao's that CIA report claiming Chen had himself shot came from -- Li Ao's imagination.

So Li Ao’s imagination just mailed him something? If only my imagination would mail me something too… I’d like a pony.

Michael Turton said...


http://www.cna.tv/stories/print/view/16244/1/b5/.html


Now there's a trustworthy source....

...can you find me something from a real news agency?

>>>...by who? Senior party leaders?

Nope.

晚間國民黨也在高雄舉辦「真誠修憲懇託晚會」,現場擠進5千名支持者。由於情資顯示,有人趁機要暗殺連戰主席,因此連主席南下的行程在前天臨時喊卡。不過三位副主席到場,包括刑警、霹靂小組,650名警力全場警戒,氣氛緊張。

http://www.tvbs.com.tw/news/news_list.asp?no=blue20050511223153


That's my point, anon. The senior DPP people don't threaten people. Nor are they a pack of murderers and their lackeys and servants, unlike the KMT leadership. Ma and the rest of them should be in jail for actively supporting a dictatorship. It's an outrage that they are able to walk around free.

>>>Too bad, eh? Might have saved a lot of Taiwanese lives…

Probably not as many lives as A-bian’s recall would’ve saved.


That's just asinine. Nobody is dead as a result of A-bian's actions.

得很難看” means. The police would be very busy if they have initiate investigations based on phrases like that. And, gosh, if I get a quarter every time I hear that phrase, I just might have enough money to buy some Taiwan Development stocks.

Ma has already apologized, so unlike you and your middle school nephew, he at least understands how such comments sound.

And, if you are so interested in the words of “senior party officials,” then, could you please do me a favor?

Could you please advise Mr. Chen Tan-shan, the former foreign minister, that it is considered impolite in this day and age to touch someone else’s scrotum? And, next time you run into Mr. Chiu Yi-ren, member of the National Security Council, could you please ask him what he meant when he said about Taiwan “humping the leg” of the Americans? I mean, is he going to hump your leg? Or, what did Mr. Wu Nai-ren, A-bian’s campaign advisor, meant to say with his phrase about DPP’s “cutthroat strategy”? Is he going to cut anyone’s throat? (I can get you a neck bracelet if you need one). What did A-bian mean with his reference about “son of a turtle”? Did someone run a check on his pedigree and find anything amphibious? Or, did Ms. Wu, A-bian’s wife, mean it when she said that she’ll step out of the politics if she ever received any money from Mr. Chen You-how? Was she serious or just kidding?

Boy, talk about political rhetoric.


Yes, and while crude and vulgar, it is not threatening. It does not come from murderers and their helpers, from representatives of a party well known for its murderous ways.

I'd love to see the level of political discourse rise here, but unfortunately I suspect it will take another generation of democracy before that will happen.

On the other hand, I am especially interested in the phrase “the democracy side.” Since this side, as its name suggests, is apparently in favor of democracy, would this side like to play by the majority rule, and join the people in asking A-bian to resign, considering that he has an approval rating of about 18%? (TSU said it is more like 5%). If not, well, considering that Mr. Ma is ahead of Mr. Chen in approval by about 40-50%, I’d like to think that the democracy side would agree that Mr. Ma would be more representative of the Taiwanese people?

Well....there is this little problem of "rule of law". There's more to democracy than temporary plunges in the polls.

So it is okay for someone to post under a pseudo name, but not okay for the one who was challenged to respond? The democracy side sure is interesting.

Didn't say it wasn't OK for you to respond. Did say that your personal attack on Tim was pathetic.

So Li Ao’s imagination just mailed him something?

Nobody mailed Li Ao anything. He's just another fading politician trying to stay in the limelight. Do you honestly think the CIA sent him a report or somebody mailed him bullets? He's too pathetic to care that deeply about.

Michael

Taiwan Echo said...

Now, after threatening the life of President Chen, Ma is pushing himself forward to threaten the entire law system by saying:

"The government will be run by a different party one day"

"All the people involved (in the investigation) could be investigated by the new government"

Putting his words in context, it seems to be obvious to the listerners that he is delivering a threat for possible future retaliation if the investigation personnel doesn't "process the investigation" up to KMT's taste.

See here

I have no idea why he kept delivering threats after threats. Is that the only way he knows about handling conflicts ?

Amy Pan said...

Okay, I'm latest again, and I have to say that I expected more mature behavior here. For one thing, I am female. For another, this is the Internet. Stop taking anonymous posting so seriously.

Just because I was raised blue does not mean I am completely ignorant. Just because I am only 18 does not mean I am completely ignorant. Trust me, I've lived in Taiwan and seen the political atmosphere enough to notice things. Just because I am young and perhaps less educated than most posters here does not mean Tim, or taiwan echo, can make personal attacks while knowing next to nothing about me.

I have NEVER said that I know "all this stuff," only that I saw the article that not-Evan mentioned in the newspaper a few years ago. It doesn't mean I said I know everything, or even anything about it, other than that I did read an article that had that information, whether true or false. I've even SAID I know said newspaper is biased, and that I was only reading it out of boredom.

Learn to read, and some mature behavior, please.

And for the record, I will say that my name is Amy P, but that I DO have a Blogger account, but had to go dig it up. Some of us don't social network in all our spare time, and some of us have to actually think to remember our old accounts.

Happy now? *frowns*

I was expecting less hostile and less stupidity from readers of this blog.

Amy P said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Amy P said...

Guh, brain hiccuped and I didn't sign in correctly. Here we are, hopefully.

AND typo:

Okay, I'm latest again,

I'm the latest anonymous again, I meant.

Michael Turton said...

Amy, your opening post was marked by stunning illogic...

If Chen were really that intelligent, he wouldn't be in the mess that he is in now, and he wouldn't have approval ratings below 20%.

...accusations of purblind bias...

I see that you have been relatively quiet regarding all the scandals hitting the DPP recently - which is exactly what the pro-DPP 民視 TV station does,

...hints that we're out of touch...

If you really want an informed view, I would suggest looking at various Chinese language media sources.

...unsupported comments...

but during this past year I'm now more or less independent because of Mr. Chen's actions.

-- I'm still waiting to hear what "actions" have made you independent -- and...

... expressions of outright naive ignorance.

the media in the US and in major urban areas is disproportionately Democratic - there's a reason for that.

...and then you write this:

I was expecting less hostile and less stupidity from readers of this blog.

I respectfully suggest that you approach the posters here with more respect, and you will be given more.

Michael

Amy P said...

But here's the thing... I didn't SAY any of those things.

If Chen were really that intelligent, he wouldn't be in the mess that he is in now, and he wouldn't have approval ratings below 20%.

...accusations of purblind bias...

I see that you have been relatively quiet regarding all the scandals hitting the DPP recently - which is exactly what the pro-DPP 民視 TV station does,

...hints that we're out of touch...

If you really want an informed view, I would suggest looking at various Chinese language media sources.

...unsupported comments...

but during this past year I'm now more or less independent because of Mr. Chen's actions.

-- I'm still waiting to hear what "actions" have made you independent -- and...

... expressions of outright naive ignorance.

the media in the US and in major urban areas is disproportionately Democratic - there's a reason for that.


None of that was me. *sigh* The only thing you quoted from me was the last bit.

Just because I posted anonymously doesn't mean all anonymous posters are me.

Michael Turton said...

Very sorry, then. I read you to say that you had said those things, yet I see now that you only accused us of being stupid. It's good to be accused of being stupid by an ignorant 18 year old, it has a refreshing cheekiness that enables us older types to be indulgent. So which previous post is yours?

Michael

Amy P said...

Okay, I'm anonymous, but I'm not Evan... or even not-Evan. And I'll end any speculation by saying that I'm 18 years old, immigrant from Taiwan into the US since age 9, and I was raised pro-blue. The article describing:

In 2004, right before the presidential election, a group of individuals who claimed to be Taiwanese revolutionaries, discussed for the assassination of Lien and Soong and made arrangements to carry out this plan (they were busted by the police).

I believe that was in 世界日報, because my parents do not get any other newspaper and I can't have possibly heard it anywhere else since at the time I was too young to care about politics beyond what I read occasionally in the newspapers when I was bored.

And even as a pro-blue family member, I have to say that said newspaper is horribly biased and even I am getting sick of the anti-Chen sentiments and insults in it, and I don't even like Chen.


Just that.

Taiwan Echo said...

Amy,

But here's the thing... I didn't SAY any of those things.

Now you know what could happen if people keep posting anonymously...

And I'll end any speculation by saying that I'm 18 years old, immigrant from Taiwan into the US since age 9, and I was raised pro-blue.

From my point of view, none what you said above is relevent. One good thing about internet is that everybody is treated equally. That does help to establish a discussion without the bias toward "who you are" or "where you from", so people can focus on "what you say".

I personally prefer seeing that pan-blue can talk freely in pro-green forums, and pan-green can talk freely in pro-blue forums. Only with enough communication (between conflicting parties) can a society have a chance to reach harmony. Unfortunately, it seems to be a far-fetching dream in current Taiwan.

Tim Maddog said...

I still couldn't figure out if "Amy" was the same person as "not-Evan" or if she is "anonymous #3" until the post just before Taiwan Echo's immediately above this one.

My most recent comment above was a reply to something in which Amy quoted an earlier comment posted by a person identifying themselves as "not-Evan," yet she didn't attribute that quote to someone else, and her self-"identification" was also rather ambiguous. The author of the earlier post she quoted had said this:
- - -
I am the “not Evan” guy.
- - -

After my reply (apparently to Amy, not the person who called himself "not-Evan"), another post whose author clearly identified himself as "not-Evan" appeared, yet that post of his did not refute my assertion that I was replying to "him."

Hence, my use of any pronouns identifying the person to whom I was replying as male was warranted by what I read. Other than that, the reply would have been the same, regardless of the gender. (RE: "For one thing, I am female.")

Amy, if the "I'll end any speculation" post was your first, that sentence probably also contributed to the confusion. Instead of assuming that people here would make things up about you when they had so far not read a single word of yours, why not assume instead -- as Taiwan Echo reminds you -- that you would be confused with others posting "anonymous" comments here and that any "assumptions" being made by myself, Michael, and Taiwan Echo are based upon the authors' own words and the "logic" they employed. (Of course, I'm "assuming" this based on their own past words and demonstration of logic.)

In fairness, here's what I wrote about Li Ao and his bullets back when it happened:
- - -
[H]e expects the police to capture the perpetrator just as quickly as they did when Premier Frank Hsieh and GIO Minister Pasuya Yao received threats via telephone.

You know what, Li Ao? So do I!

I, too, hope they find the perpetrator, because with your history of insane statements and accusations and without any real evidence that someone else (a pan-green supporter?!) did it, I can only conclude that you directed someone to mail it to you just so you'd have something to talk about on the news.

- - -

I made those assertions based on his previous behavior.

Amy, try being clear enough that people replying to you know which "anonymous" they're communicating with, and don't quote others without attributing the quote to someone.

Now, go back and read my "negate himself" post, and tell me where I "ma[d]e personal attacks" against you that are any worse than your "Learn to read, and some mature behavior, please." In direct response (and this has nothing to do with your English), you need to demonstrate a basic attempt to be clear before you accuse others of "hostil[ity]" and "stupidity."