Xuenfang Battery in Tainan, on Guanghua Street, now enclosed in the grounds of a Buddhist nunnery.The DPP came out with a statement on Saturday morning saying that the Wu-Hu talks had inflicted "five major wounds" on Taiwan:
Harming Taiwan's democracy by regressing the pattern of cross-strait negotiations back before even the October 1992 semi-public SEF-ARATS talks to the party to party talks called for in the "Nine Points" issued in 1981 by Ye Jianying and by returning to an era of "the party leads the government." The negotiations are "private negotiations" and the KMT neither has to report to the Legislative Yuan nor be subject to any monitoring.
Harming Taiwan's sovereignty as Wu did not even dare to mention "one China, separate expressions," turning Taiwan`s President Ma into Taipei's Mister Ma. Thus did not just set aside disputes, it set aside Taiwan's sovereignty. Wu`s request for Beijing's help in arranging Taiwan`s international space also reduced Taiwan`s sovereignty into a bargaining chip with China so that even before negotiations have begun, Taiwan has already made a serious concession by Wu`s agreement to "hollow out" Taiwan`s sovereignty.
Harming Taiwan's negotiation process by placing the KMT-CCP platform ahead of the SEF - ARATS channel and even implying with the timing that only because of the party-to-party talks and has allowed China to portray the June 11-14 talks as the product of party-to-party negotiations and has thus created confusion between the KMT-CCP "Track Two" and the SEF-ARATS "Track One."Harming Taiwan's security as, while proclaiming that the people on both sides of the strait belonged to the same Chinese nation had shared the love of compatriots, Hu has not done anything to eliminate the threat to the 23 million Taiwan people by 1,400 missiles aimed at Taiwan or to cease oppressing Taiwan`s international space or blocking Taiwan's entry into the
WHO. The only result of the Wu-Hu talks has been the depreciation of Taiwan's sovereignty.Harming Taiwan's economic interests by focusing solely on the opening of the Taiwan market to Chinese tourists and the initiation of direct weekend passenger charter flights, both of which are more favorable to the PRC`s interests, and failing to discuss the question of direct charter cargo flights, which is more in Taiwan's interest and would facilitate the retention of R&D and precision component production in Taiwan and locating assembly operations in China.The DPP statement said it did not oppose contact between political parties in the PRC and Taiwan on the basis of upholding Taiwan`s national interests, promoting cross-strait peace, publicizing Taiwan`s democracy and assisting China`s democratization.
However, the DPP maintained that such interaction should not involve matters of public authority or national interest and noted that if such contacts did do so, they would be violating the statute on cross-strait relations, which specifically bans any individuals or organizations from engaging in negotiations with mainland organizations or government on matters that involve public authority or interest.
Some incisive commentary from the DPP. Wu has granted the PRC everything it wants and gotten nothing from the PRC. As a perceptive commentator pointed out to me, it looks like the public elected the KMT to fix the economy by moving closer to China, but the KMT is moving closer to China regardless, and the economy is just an excuse. In a society with a robust and fair-minded media, the disjunct between the goals of the KMT and the people might cause serious problems, but with the way the media serves the Blues....
[Taiwan]
28 comments:
KMT policy seems to be to placate the PRC with minor steps in the direction of unity.I suspect the Nationalists are doing this to avoid a PRC military attack while hoping for a miracle (like the PRC becoming a democracy).The odds of this leading to a good outcome for Taiwan are not good but still better than the utterly hopeless DPP pursuit of internaionally recognized independence.I have a question for those who oppose the KMT approach.Are you prepared to pay the price to pursue an alternative?
@anon,
If the Taiwanese stood together with one voice over the past 12+ years, the world would have supported their cause.
Now I fear it is too late. In a few years (or maybe sooner), the blue followers will be crying the blues and regretting what they gave away.
anon-
The KMT approach is eventual unification. Eventual unification would only come at the expense of Taiwan's sovereignty. The "utterly hopeless" DPP way, furthered Taiwan's sovereignty and identify, while still not sending us into a war. Was there any price to pay? The only price that the Taiwan media seems to say that we paid was a slow economy, which is not really true. Taiwan's economy experienced growth was on par and better than many other countries. Perhaps it only pales in comparison to China.
The way I envisioned Taiwan's state had Hsieh been elected was 4 years of stalemate, status-quo, quasi-independence (which most Taiwanese want), while continuing with its current GDP growth rates of 4-5%. Doesn't seem like theres any price to pay in that, because surely you don't think Ma is capable of turning Taiwan's economy into a 10% GDP growth rate overnight do you?
That is just what the Chinese want people thinking, anon. What ever you do, don't anger China, or you will face the consequences. What emboldens them more is the idea that the world would be half-hearted in its defense of Taiwan, and that there would be less defence on the island in case of hostilities.
I also don't think the case for international recognition would be so hopeless if Taiwanese put up a unified front on the issue. It is easy to brush aside the cause of independence when there are two opposing camps in Taiwan.
Regardless, appeasement does not work.
Bottomline for Taiwan is this. Are the Taiwan people ready for war?
Formal independence that the DPP pursues will ultimately lead down that path.
Rising powers generally do not let parts of them break away peacefully especially authoritian ones.
You can shout all you want how Taiwan was never part of it, but what matters here is whether or not China is ready to go to war over Taiwan and so far all signs point to yes, they will level Taiwan before allowing formal independence .
Reeb,Thomas and Richard,The Taiwanese do need to unify but not because it would affect the island's international standing.The ROC is isolated in part because the KMT for decades said it was part of China.The international community accepted this and since the PRC is now recognized as the only China ,virtually country has agreed that Taiwan belongs to Beijing.They continue to do this because of the PRC's power not because Taiwan is not unified.No country of consequence would even seriously consider recognizing Taiwan because it would mean breaking relations with Beijing.The Taiwanese need to unify to consider the deadly serious question of how to deter a PRC attack.That is the price I am talking about.It would be risky and expensive but has the potential for success unlike the DPP independence policies which did make some Taiwanese feel good but did nothing to improve the island's diplomatic standing.The DPP basically told the world"We have all the traits of an independent state and deserve to be recognized as such.It is the only fair and moral thing to do".The DPP was completely right in its moral case but dead wrong in thinking that it mattered.Taiwan's isolation is based on realpolitik not morality.
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Looks like the Chinese propaganda machine is using the "Zhonghua minzu" rhetoric to full effect. From Xinhua News...
"I am especially impressed by Mr Wu's notion that 'both the mainland and Taiwan belong to the Chinese nation,'" said Wang Zhongliu, a college teacher at a Beijing-based university.
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His words were echoed by Chen Jinlu, a government official working in the southeastern Fujian Province on the neighboring Taiwan Strait.
"People on both sides of the Taiwan Strait are always like family to each other," Chen said. "When the magnitude 7.6 earthquake struck Taiwan in September 1999, we on the Chinese mainland were also concerned about our Taiwan compatriots."
Hmm...I seem to remember a couple of years ago that the Chinese government was a little less concerned about it's "brothers" across the straight when a thing called "SARS" reared it's ugly head.
And what sort of "family" threatens to blow your head off if you don't do what you're told? Furthermore -- the last I heard -- over 60% of Taiwanese do not consider themselves to be Chinese. It will be interesting to see if this play-on-words strategy that the PandaMa adminisistration has implemented will quickly back-fire.
Oh, BTW, in case you didn't notice:
- The CKS mausoleum will be re-opened.
- A "Ma" museum will soon be built
- There has been a call for PandaMa to receive the Nobel Peace at around 2011.
- In 2012, it is argued that Ma should be deified
- resumes are now being accepted for artists that can create huge bronze sculptures.
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Taiwan owns a huge chunk of the worlds computer and chip production. The west can not afford for that to fall into China's hands. Now admittedly, there is a rather incompetent administration in charge in the US, however not even they would allow China to annex Taiwan.
Similarly - China can not afford a war. It has a relatively weak central government which relies on continuous economic growth to stabilize it's power. Even if the west would not oppose a Chinese aggression militarily - a drawn-out boycott could cause a collapse.
If China wants to annex Taiwan, they need to make sure that Taiwan's economic role is no longer strategically significant. They can get closer to that goal by getting Taiwanese companies to outsource their production to China, and by catching-up technologically.
The missiles are there for intimidation, but militarily China has long been in a position to win against Taiwan, and will not be in a position to win against the US for a very long time to come.
Certainly - nationalistic fervor might conceivably push a weak government to attack. However as Michael likes to point out: China typically choses to be offended by this or that - they are not forced to do so. They do that for political bargaining power, not because they have no choice.
Bottomline for Taiwan is this. Are the Taiwan people ready for war?
Bottom line is: are the trolls ready to think outside the box? All signs point to: "no."
...create huge bronze sculptures.
@stop ma, I will donate a name:
Mt. Flushmore
"They continue to do this because of the PRC's power not because Taiwan is not unified."
Yet in the same paragraph, you say that "the KMT for decades said it was part of China".
Firstly, I note your incorrect use of the past tense. The KMT still says they are a part of China, despite much localisation hooplah by Ma during the presidential campaign.
Secondly, you are right that Realpolitik favours China.
However, you can't honestly say that a lack of a unified viewpoint on the island does not have an effect on Taiwan's international space. Conflicting messages from Taiwan itself, notably thanks to the blue media and the KMT, which continue to weave an anachronistic tale, are the primary reason why there is so much misinformation about Taiwan internationally, and so little support.
Realpolitik is important, but it is not the only thing that matters when it comes to world opinion. Case in point: Tibet. The big power that is involved is the same: China. Here we see a case where international criticism comes despite Realpolitik.
Now imagine half of local Tibetans were vocal about their adoration for China, and that this half constantly opposed itself to the others, who wanted more autonomy and less oppression. Do you think the international community would show the same support? Of course, Tibet and Taiwan are two very different situations. However, the world would not be so warm and fuzzy towards those cuddly Tibetans if half of Tibetans themselves vocally opposed more autonomy.
Taiwan has much better prospects than Tibet because, for China to force its point, it must rely on its military, as you note. Yet this would result in an image catastrophe, which is the reason why collaborators such as KMT Chairman Wu and other die-hards are necessary for the PRC.
As you also note, China will not shrink from a military takeover if they have no other choice. Yet if the KMT and blue media could acknowledge that the majority of the Taiwanese don't want unification, and could make that a part of their policy (which is still, anachronistically, focused on evenual unification) this would reduce the amount of mixed messages that go out and, despite Realpolitik, would greatly heighten the diplomatic consequences of Chinese military action.
In short: Realpolitik doesn't explain everything in international politics.
"It will be interesting to see if this play-on-words strategy that the PandaMa adminisistration has implemented will quickly back-fire."
My guess, Stop Ma, is that most people won't care as long as they see economic benefits. If Taiwanese don't feel the economy is getting better after some years go by, there will be repercussions. Of course, luckily for the KMT, the trusty blue media is there to tell everyone how it won't matter if Ma can't live up to his lofty pledges.
Oh and one more thing. The Xinhua quotation that you have included shows the danger of the Zhonghua Minzu thing. Last I checked, Wu did not say that Taiwan was a part of the "Chinese nation". If he did say this, please let me know. If not, then you can see the problem that comes when vague statements are actively interpreted by local propagandists.
Bottom line is: are the trolls ready to think outside the box? All signs point to: "no."
So are green trolls also ready to think outside the box? By this logic in particular, so when Obama said he is going to talk to Iran and cuba leaders when he is elected as the president; according to the conservatives, he is going to negotiate with the terrorists (or having a love fest as words of choice in this blog)?
I guess Jimmy Carter said it best here:
http://tinyurl.com/3srvya
Although he himself was guilty of this behavior when he was a president.
Btw, after what Taiwan has done in the WTO against all its other members (don't know what I am saying; time to find out yourself), I don't even think we (US) will try to help Taiwan enthusiastically.
"so when Obama said he is going to talk to Iran and cuba leaders when he is elected as the president; according to the conservatives, he is going to negotiate with the terrorists"
If you haven't noticed, Obama has backtracked on his Iran statement considerably. Evidently, it is not only conservatives who think it is a bad idea to talk to the Iranians, who have shown before their love for peace and undying honesty (snicker), without some conditions, citing just the man you do (Jimmy Carter) as an example.
If you want to come up with an example of thinking outside the box, you might want to come up with one that demonstrates success.
Thomas,I agree that more unity among Taiwanese would help in the international arena.It just would not help enough to make a difference.Any serious observer of Taiwan (like the foreign ministry of any developed country) knows that the vast majority of ROC citizens do not want to be ruled by Beijing.The international diplomatic community knows this and still is guided by realpolitik.Tibet enjoys a lot of support from the international public thanks to its unique culture,geography etc. along with the Dalai Lama's status as a moral and religious leader.But even with this status, the PRC did not really suffer for its brutal crackdown there.There was some temporary loss of face for the CCP but that may have been more than counterbalanced by the hyper-nationalist reaction from Chinese at home and abroad.Taiwan will never have Tibet's iconic status in the Western mind.If China invades, the international reaction is quite predictable:criticism and maybe some temporary boycotts and sanctions but nothing more.The only real question is what military support the US would offer.Against a full-on PRC attack ,only a very strong American response will be enough but will the US public be willing to go that far?Taiwan needs to consider what could deter a PRC invasion and whether it is willing to go that far.
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Hey Arty,
**NEWSFLASH**
Iran and Cuba would not, in any way, like to annex the United States of America. Furthermore, Iran and Cuba are not pointing 1500+ missiles at the United States of America.
The "box" does not suit you well.
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If you haven't noticed, Obama has backtracked on his Iran statement considerably. Evidently, it is not only conservatives who think it is a bad idea to talk to the Iranians, who have shown before their love for peace and undying honesty (snicker), without some conditions, citing just the man you do (Jimmy Carter) as an example.
Huh? Talk is always with conditions, except we won't even talk to them today even with conditions (unless you are a Republican which always start talking to other nations/organizations unconditionally including the formal freedom fighters in Afghanistan). Thomas would you mind telling me why does the Iranian government hate us? Oh wait, we supported a dictator who killed hundreds of thousand if not millions. Btw, Obama is not back tracking, he just clarified his position because when he said he is going to talk to Iran apparently some people think it is without condition i.e. the Republican; plus his official policy on holding Iranian talks with pre-conditions has not change a word on his website since he started running (see Obama website; see another reference). Also, I cite because citations give support far better than a statement without any references. So where is Obama's back tracking (I want a reference but please no FOX news).
Hey Arty,
**NEWSFLASH**
Iran and Cuba would not, in any way, like to annex the United States of America. Furthermore, Iran and Cuba are not pointing 1500+ missiles at the United States of America.
The "box" does not suit you well.
News Flash
We actually talk to people who point missiles at us, and never use that as an excuse not to talk to them. Also, clearly you don't get it, we, the US, is "China" in this argument. Iran and cuba actually want to talk to us but we don't want to do it because we don't like their governments (see similarity here :P). We certainly want to annex Cuba (we has a base on it already; and how could you forget Bay of Pigs) and invade Iran (are we counting down the invasion?)
My point is that talks between two governmental bodies are always good. Calling a lovefest because of your personal bias just sounded silly (my personal opinion of course).
Arty: "Talk is always with conditions."
Funny, Arty, that is not what BO said. Read the debate transcript yourself. No word turning was necessary from me or any conservative that you seem to despise.
You say that he just "clarified his position" instead of backtracking. How convenient! Then I guess nobody in this world ever really backtracks. They just "clarify" what they really meant. LOL! No, not LOL. Rather ROFLMAO at you. Get real!
Arty, I have taken this thread off track, and I apologise. However, I go back to my point that if you want to cite examples of thinking outside the box when it comes to solving Taiwan's problems, you had better look for more postive examples of thinking outside the box than a man who is following in the footsteps of a president (Carter) who has used that same line of thinking before and made nothing of it. That is not thinking outside the box.
The PRC could never be persuaded to give up its claim to Taiwan.(If anyone knows of any serious sinologist who thinks otherwise,let me know.)BUT it might delay taking military action if the cost of that action was made high enough.The KMT tacitly admits its inability to do so with its appeasement approach.The DPP lives in a fantasy world where it ignores military reality.If there are any intellectually honest DPP supporters here, I would like to ask how they propose to make an invasion of Taiwan too costly for the PRC(.By the way,it IS possible.)
The DPP lives in a fantasy world where it ignores military reality.
Yes, we here on this blog live in that fantasy reality where the DPP attempted to purchase weapons to defend the island, and the KMT opposed them, where the military was reorganized and brought under civilian control. It's good thing you live in the real world where the KMT strongly supported the weapons purchase and works hard to defend the lives and sovereighty of the taiwanese!
If there are any intellectually honest DPP supporters here, I would like to ask how they propose to make an invasion of Taiwan too costly for the PRC(.By the way,it IS possible.)
Of course it is possible! But we intellectually dishonest types see that as only one possibility among many. Fortunately for the world we have you to restore our intellectual integrity.
Some of these guys are so far down in the box, light can't reach them anymore.
Michael
you had better look for more postive examples of thinking outside the box than a man who is following in the footsteps of a president (Carter) who has used that same line of thinking before and made nothing of it. That is not thinking outside the box.
Huh? I did say when he was a president he is guilty of the same thing right. I just use his article because it is the right thinking unfortunately the person who preaches cannot fulfill it either. If you read my old posts, you will realize, I don't like Carter because he is all talks (at least when he was the President).
Some of these guys are so far down in the box, light can't reach them anymore.
Well, at least I don't think democracy is a fundamental value of the west (blind arrogance). When westerners has killed and murdered more innocent people than any other culture. Hint: There was one monarch in Europe not only murdered and killed more innocent people than Hitler and Stalin combine. She also enslaved probably the most amount of people in history under her rules. If democracy is such a fundamental value of the west (socially or individually), how could such thing ever occurred in western culture.
Also, I guess Ma didn't win the election as your predicted (or did you predict a close race). Well, I guess you can still teach English. It suits you well, I can't write never the less teach English at all as you can see.
If democracy is such a fundamental value of the west (socially or individually), how could such thing ever occurred in western culture.
Can't recall saying democracy was fundamental value of west, so don't know why you are saying this.
lso, I guess Ma didn't win the election as your predicted (or did you predict a close race).
I changed over time, as you are aware. I originally thought Hsieh would win, but then the DPP ran an awful campaign and the KMT an excellent one. After that I thought Ma would win by 6-10 pts. I never imagined a 17 point blowout and don't know anyone who did, and if we ever meet for a beer, I'll tell you what really happened.
Michael
Well, I guess you can still teach English. It suits you well, I can't write never the less teach English at all as you can see.
Why the attempt at insult? I didn't attack you but some anonymous nitwit.
Can't recall saying democracy was fundamental value of west, so don't know why you are saying this.
My mistake, your exact phase is "the KMT does not embrace any core values of westerners such as democracy, and killed an awful lot of people in China and here." It is core not fundamental.
Why the attempt at insult? I didn't attack you but some anonymous nitwit.
Sorry, if I offended you, but it is my nature.
Arty's problem isn't that he suffers from poor English. It's that he suffers from poor logic and the bias of his waisheng heritage. It's like the Humanity at Stake book except instead of Mainlander Chinese, replace it with waisheng. They've come to their conclusions a long time ago, and it's pointless to argue with them. The only good thing about Arty's illogical ramblings is it exposes people who might not otherwise be exposed to the sad phenomenon...
There should be something like a Humanity at Stake book of waisheng+people that are in love with some mystical Chinese culture/identity/nationalism and their political spewings. It could be sold as humor.
Arty's problem isn't that he suffers from poor English. It's that he suffers from poor logic and the bias of his waisheng heritage. It's like the Humanity at Stake book except instead of Mainlander Chinese, replace it with waisheng. They've come to their conclusions a long time ago, and it's pointless to argue with them. The only good thing about Arty's illogical ramblings is it exposes people who might not otherwise be exposed to the sad phenomenon...
Anon keeps up the good work on classifying people just like the good old DPP, and then comes back accusing KMT doing the discrimination. If I am rambling, why you guys haven't answer to my question on the mythical budget cuts. After I showed you the website where the official Taiwan budget is located, and there is no budget cut (go look at the old post for the link or google it). Also, how about the Kyoto University paper on how KMT exhausted all China gold reserves trying to stabilize Taiwan's inflation from 1949 to 1950 (go look at the old post for the link or google it).
Btw, I identify myself as an American. Although I cannot write English well (see at least I admit to my weakness), I did score 620 out 800 in GRE verbal almost 10 years ago (I know, I know, it is not as good as some of you but it is above average). I did make it up with my math score though.
Let me rephrase anon's argument. The argument is that those that cling to a Chinese nationalist identity or are deep-Blue in Taiwan are almost all waisheng. It is tied tightly with their identification as Chinese exclusive of being Taiwanese and being completely closed off to any arguments of independence.
They are against independence because even though they've lived in Taiwan for most of their lives or were born here, they cling strongly to being waisheng, the prestige it used to bring, and something about "blood" and "5000 years of Chinese history" and those "Japanese devils" or "foreign devils". They still cling to a fascist, nationalistic ideal of China, the KMT, and the Chiang family, even though so many of these lies have been exposed since Taiwan has been democratized. They want to impose their ideals of Chinese identity and nation on Taiwan. They think all things Taiwanese are low class and political and "curiosities" at best.
But many waisheng have thoroughly integrated in Taiwanese society. Especially young "waisheng" (most just prefer to just call themselves Taiwanese) don't identify as Chinese and how they vote or their political ideas don't have much to do with their ethnic identity.
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