The typhoon may have cut a swath of destruction across southern Taiwan, but the geopolitics goes on. Up today is this interesting article showing how some thinkers in China regard India:Almost coinciding with the 13th round of Sino-Indian border talks (New Delhi [ Images ], August 7-8, 2009), an article (in the Chinese language) has appeared in China captioned 'If China takes a little action, the so-called Great Indian Federation can be broken up' (Zhong Guo Zhan Lue Gang, www.iiss.cn, Chinese, August 8, 2009).There's more in that vein. The article gives a sort of mirror-image insight into how Beijing views its own ethnic nationalists -- as a source of potential dismemberment of the nation. You'd never catch any Chinese claiming that regional prosperity would advance if China were broken up into many states, but apparently it is ok to make such claims about other multiethnic states. The analysis of India is shallow and not very intelligent, but it does show how many in China think -- and how deeply concerned China is with India.
Interestingly, it has been reproduced in several other strategic and military Web sites of the country and by all means, targets the domestic audience. The authoritative host site is located in Beijing [ Images ] and is the new edition of one, which so far represented the China International Institute for Strategic Studies (www.chinaiiss.org).
Claiming that Beijing's 'China-Centric' Asian strategy, provides for splitting India, the writer of the article, Zhan Lue (strategy), has found that New Delhi's corresponding 'India-Centric' policy in Asia, is in reality a 'Hindustan centric' one. Stating that on the other hand 'local centres' exist in several of the country's provinces (excepting for the UP and certain northern regions), Zhan Lue has felt that in the face of such local characteristics, the 'so-called' Indian nation cannot be considered as one having existed in history.
According to the article, if India today relies on any thing for unity, it is the Hindu religion. The partition of the country was based on religion. Stating that today nation states are the main current in the world, it has said that India could only be termed now as a 'Hindu religious state'. Adding that Hinduism is a decadent religion as it allows caste exploitation and is unhelpful to the country's modernisation, it described the Indian government as one in a dilemma with regard to eradication of the caste system as it realises that the process to do away with castes may shake the foundation of the consciousness of the Indian nation.
The writer has argued that in view of the above, China in its own interest and the progress of Asia, should join forces with different nationalities like the Assamese, Tamils, and Kashmiris and support the latter in establishing independent nation-States of their own, out of India. In particular, the ULFA (United Liberation Front of Asom) in Assam, a territory neighboring China, can be helped by China so that Assam realises its national independence.
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I am SO rooting for India. Indian success would boil China on so many levels, especially to be bested by "dark races".
ReplyDeleteGo India!
I suppose what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - the editorial line of this blog is dedicated towards undermining the CCP's imagined conception of the Chinese state, so perhaps the Chinese can legitimately hope to undermine the imagined communities of others.
ReplyDeleteMy only concern is that for all the CCP's faults it has somehow, despite the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution etc. achieved a standard of living and quality of life far superior to India's [according to statistics from the Economist, China's per capita GDP is roughly 300% of 'free, democratic' India's]. I'm no friend of the CCP, but I am even less well disposed towards India.
the 'so-called' Indian nation cannot be considered as one having existed in history.
ReplyDeleteI believe the Chinese theory of "existed in history" is anything before 1895 [not inclusive]. Otherwise it didn't happen.
Of course China wants to destabilize India. As the US and Europe battle away in Afghanistan, and neutralize Pakistan (and Iran may be next), China's back door, and its expansionist plans for Central Asia are potentially at risk.
ReplyDeleteI suppose what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - the editorial line of this blog is dedicated towards undermining the CCP's imagined conception of the Chinese state, so perhaps the Chinese can legitimately hope to undermine the imagined communities of others.
ReplyDeleteI love dumbshit pro-China posters, who can't even read English properly. It's the not the CCP's imagined state I object to, it's the very real authoritarianism and expansionism of it into non-Chinese places. I don't much care one way or another how the Chinese arrange themselves internally, I just want them to stop annexing the nations around them and murdering their people.
We're not even going to get into the way you've bastardized the term "imagined community."
Michael
I guess all that stuff about other countries not interfering in China's "internal affairs" should be considered no longer applicable?
ReplyDeleteParty time!
Tim Maddog
That's quite enough, Michael. Although I suspect that you will not publish this comment, allow me to say that you are a distinctly crude man, who does the Taiwanese cause little, if any good. Had you bothered to read my post carefully, you would have found that I am in no way, shape or form pro-China. I merely seek to give credit where credit is due based on a dispassionate statement of verifiable fact. Your use of ad hominem commentary to reply to me, however, is disappointing.
ReplyDeleteAs a brief clarification, I wrote "imagined conception" not as Arnold's imagined communities (which you fail to appreciate is a primarily national, rather than statist question) but rather as the CCP's fixation with the geographical extent of the PRC. In this respect, geography and the imagined form of the state trumps nationality and, consequently, it would be inappropriate to invoke the "imagined community" paradigm.
Finally, Mr Turton, although I support the Taiwanese right to self-determination, I do not subscribe to the absurd rhetoric that the Taiwanese are a rather quixotic chimera of Austronesian and Japanese people wherein any Chinese (or Min, if you must) ethnic influence is incidental. I have spent much time researching separatist movements in, inter alia, Italy and Spain and found that most revolve around frankly deluded ethnic entrepreneurs like some fringe elements of the DPP.
Of course, I don't expect you to agree with me, but for the sake of argument, I am curious to know why you have taken up the spurious cause of Taiwanese ethnic exceptionalism. Are the Taiwanese so desperate that they cannot consolidate a sovereign, independent state without having to renounce their Chinese roots first? Is being a Chinaman so bad?
Canada is a free and independent state, yet one that embraces its Anglo-Saxon heritage. Ditto Austria and Germany.
Yes, Mr Turton, I am sympathetic to your cause, but the vulgarity with which you chose to hit back is something I resent. It also suggests a rather dogmatic mindset. As if the CCP could never and under no circumstances do anything decent, respectable of praiseworthy. This sort of extremism is bound to kill the prospects of Taiwanese independence. Time, ceteris paribus, is not in your favour and further entrenchment can only result in further disappointment.
Oh, and remember, by the way, when you claimed in the summer of 2008 that Taiwan was preparing to declare independence in the wake of Kosovo? I only hope your skills as a polemicist exceed your capabilities as a political analyst.
All the best,
SM (doberfuhr@hotmail.com - in the unlikely case you may wish to reply)
You're Chinese literate aren't you Turton? The original "article" that the Indian "scholar" and I use this the scare quotes with maximal contempt here translated is available for your own perusal.
ReplyDeletehttp://club.mil.news.sina.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=42950&extra=&page=1
The first post is the so-called "authoritative" article by a guy writing under a nickname who apparently works for the China Institute of Strategic Studies (or maybe not http://m.timesofindia.com/PDATOI/articleshow/4886609.cms)
As far as sky is falling Indian self-flagellations is concerned, this is a mere 6 out of 10, at least compared to the mother of all make believe threats that is the Great Cocos Island disappearing, never existing Chinese spy base.
In reality, this whole episode reflects more about the Indians than it does the Chinese. That some random scribbling by a netizen is mis-interpreted as some sort of official government sanctioned white paper (afterall if its not deleted, it must be government sponsored!) shows just how incompetent India's so-called strategic thinkers are. The responses so far are more illuminating of Indian insecurity and concern vis-a-vis China than the other way around.
SM:
ReplyDelete1. Never claimed Taiwan was "preparing to declare independence" in the wake of Kosovo. That's totally asinine. Stop proving my comment that you can't read.
2. I have on numerous occasions deplored Taiwanese ethnic nationalism, in fact in stuff quoted in overseas publications. The idea that I embrace Taiwanese ethnic nationalism is a rather ugly talking point. Stop proving my comment you can't read.
3. I have never said that the Taiwanese aren't Chinese in culture -- quite the opposition, on numerous occasions in response to the de-sinification talking point, I've affirmed the close connection -- and to claim that the DPP wants to renounce its Chinese roots is a KMT talking point. Stop proving my comment that you can't read.
4. You claim: Had you bothered to read my post carefully, you would have found that I am in no way, shape or form pro-China. I merely seek to give credit where credit is due based on a dispassionate statement of verifiable fact.
But you said earlier:
My only concern is that for all the CCP's faults it has somehow, despite the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution etc. achieved a standard of living and quality of life far superior to India's [according to statistics from the Economist, China's per capita GDP is roughly 300% of 'free, democratic' India's]. I'm no friend of the CCP, but I am even less well disposed towards India.
You "dispassionately" say that China's quality of life exceeds India's. Perhaps, unless you worship God, belong to the Falungong, or want to criticize the Party, etc. Quality of life is a value, not a fact. Asserting that you "dispassionately" state values is basically assuming the mantle of facticity to hack on the values of others, in this case to take a pro-China position. Such rhetorical games you play!
The CCP beggared China for decades, killing millions. Suddenly they open up, and the full power of the Chinese people comes into play, and China becomes wealthier, and this is to the credit of the CCP? That it finally chose to do what other nations did routinely -- let their people run their own businesses? I swoon at the awesome economic management skills of the CCP. What will they think of next?
We won't even get into the whole US-driven East Asia supply chain/developmentalist state political economy that made China rich, whose development the CCP had nothing to do with.
I always put up genuine criticism, since it is usually warranted. But I don't let pro-PRC types post here without commentary on how morally ugly and historically uninformed they are.
Your initial post was totally pro-PRC, in all its aspects. There's no moral or political equivalence between opposing PRC colonialism and expansionism in Xinjiang, Tibet, and elsewhere, and wishing that India might be broken up. The colonialist and his victims, existing and planned, are never equivalent. The (legitimating) implication that they are, a vast moral and political failure, was what triggered my response.
Which, as your subsequent claims have amply proved, was dead-on.
Michael
Jing, thanks for the comments and the links. Lots of Indians sent this to me, and you are right, it does say something about India, but also about way many in China see things.
ReplyDeleteMichael
"Your use of ad hominem commentary to reply to me, however, is disappointing."
ReplyDeleteIn the spirit of tough love, let me second that. Most of the time when temper and ridicule make the source loot worse than the target.
The post was not obviously pro-China. It could have as easily come from an objective point-of-view as from a reflexive pro-China point-of-view. It observed the similarity of attempts to undermine the Chinese empire and attempts to undermine the Indian conglomeration. It's true that it ignored the hypocrisy of China of preaching one thing at home an another abroad, but in this context one would expect most readers to already know that, so it didn't need to be pointed out.
This isn't the first time I've been disappointed in one of Michael Turton's responses. But at least he prints the criticisms. Were he so inclined he could just not print them, but that would be the equivalent of what right-wing radio hosts on the US do when they confront a caller they can't handle and hang up, and I know Michael Turton is no fan of right-wing radio hosts.
The original article (well, English translation of) has a number of fundamental, basic errors about India in it. Really, the writing quality is on par with a China Post or Taipei Times article. When the basic facts are wrong, it's hard to make any meaningful observations.
ReplyDeleteOne problem India does have is with its human rights record. Things are slowly improving, but by-and-large, once you get away from the more modern areas, a lot of very shocking human rights violations take place on a daily basis (some of which I've personally witnessed). Unfortunately, a lot of this is overlooked because India is a democracy - if it weren't the western media and govts would probably focus some more attention on this.
Readin + SM:
ReplyDeleteBeen blogging now for years, and administrated and moderated groups for years before that. Seen so many fakes and frauds that my hackles go right up...
Putting pro-PRC stuff like that in a comment here is trolling. Period. It's been my bitter experience that anyone who posts here starting "I am not Blue or Green but...." you know the post is going to be anti-Green and the poster is a closet Blue. If someone starts here "I don't like the PRC but [isn't the PRC glorious!!!]" I am almost always listening to a pro-PRC voice in masquerade.
SM's comment about the CCP raising incomes is the kind of unthinking pro-Establishment crap I particularly despise. Not only is it completely wrong, but it serves the PRC.
I don't know what it is about China that short-circuits the critical thinking faculties of the people who observe it -- money? size? power? but it serves China well.
Michael
One problem India does have is with its human rights record. Things are slowly improving, but by-and-large, once you get away from the more modern areas, a lot of very shocking human rights violations take place on a daily basis (some of which I've personally witnessed). Unfortunately, a lot of this is overlooked because India is a democracy - if it weren't the western media and govts would probably focus some more attention on this.
ReplyDeleteI am aware of the human rights issues in India, Craig. They get plenty of western press. But they pale beside those of the PRC.
Michael
"3. I have never said that the Taiwanese aren't Chinese in culture -- quite the opposition, on numerous occasions in response to the de-sinification talking point, I've affirmed the close connection -- and to claim that the DPP wants to renounce its Chinese roots is a KMT talking point. Stop proving my comment that you can't read."
ReplyDeleteI would actually question that Taiwanese are Chinese. I think transmission theory and cultural theory could demonstrate a strong case that they are culturally different, but I would like to see it proven that they are the same. Indulge me.
Oooh, just popped up in my news feed: Google Maps http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2009/08/china-india-data-error-explained.html
ReplyDeletewe inadvertently added Chinese language names to some locations in Arunachal Pradesh that were previously unlabeled or labeled with English language Indian place names.
Oops?!
Some of the rights violations get press but my no means all. Extra-judicial killings, elected officials involved in kidnapping, murder and extortion, human trafficking, infanticide, "eve" teasing, lack of legal rights for accused etc are very much under reported in the media. In these areas (and it doesn't really get much more serious than murder), there's not much difference between the two.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I am in the midst of planning my 4th trip there :)
Wow dumbass Anon,
ReplyDeleteI am glad you took the time to read, analyze and criticize the theory of "imagined communities". I just hope your source, "Arnold", has written as great a book on the theory as Benedict Anderson.
Maybe the two authors could put together a synthesis pertaining to the current situation under the Ma administration, and they could call it, "Benedict Arnold's Imagined Community".
@ Michael. I will, in a very civilised manner, agree to disagree.
ReplyDeleteAs for: "I love dumbshit pro-China posters," - your rage is understandable. Stay classy, Mr Turton.
Yours,
SM
I will, SM, and you just keep repeating those KMT and PRC talking points.
ReplyDeleteMichael
Been blogging now for years, and administrated and moderated groups for years before that. Seen so many fakes and frauds that my hackles go right up...
ReplyDeleteI did think about that. From our perspective this blog is 95% high-class with very little foul language. From your perspective, it could be that 50% of the comments that come in contain foul language and hateful insults. It can be tough to keep your own language pure when it seems everyone around you is cussing.
For the work you do in moderating you have both my sympathy and my appreciation.
i think China should let Tibet and East Turkesdtan freen then it have not to care about Indian borders. so can China do with Machuria and mongolia. nothing to care about Russians and wester forces fighting in Korea. thats is a very "harmonical and traditional what chinese... well almost that what chinese claim to love to call their "tradition".
ReplyDeleteI actually feel that here in the US, I get far more western press coverage on China's human rights incidents than on India's. I suppose it's much easier, since communication and infrastructure in China are much more established. Oh, and maybe it's easier to say something nasty when the country is "Communist."
ReplyDeleteI think the author has lack history knowledge and will need some common language to understand it not the shinese versions. The very basic what connects so many indians together is they know what cost they have paid for independence. BTW india is home to most diverse races in world.
ReplyDelete