The Liberty Times today hosted an interesting article on a Kaohsiung restaurant that doesn't serve anyone from China, or Taiwanese traitors.....[Quickie translation, let me know if there are any errors]....國民黨主席吳伯雄的「島內」風波，被民進黨立委引用網路笑話為「無脖熊」；高雄一家餐廳也有「背骨無脖熊」這道菜，這兩天點的人很多，超過原本最熱賣的「露出馬腳」（諷馬英九），業者劉明松與吳都是客家人，要吳硬頸說清楚，別再硬拗了。I'll be making my reservation there soon!
The storm over KMT Chairman Wu Po-hsiung's reference to "within the island" [while in China] resulted in him being jokingly called 「無脖熊」 (neckless bear, a play on his name). In Kaohsiung a restaurant has a dish called "backbone neckless bear" ordered by many customers in the last two days, even surpassing the previous hot dish 「露出馬腳」, (which pokes fun at Ma Ying-jeou). Like Wu himself, owner Liu Ming-sung is a Hakka. He wants Wu to stick his neck out and speak clearly, instead of always speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
事實上，高雄紅瓦厝餐廳的「國共賣台特餐」，早就有一道菜叫「無脖熊」，是以橙花排骨製成，諷刺吳伯雄「背骨」。老闆劉明松說，這兩天「無脖熊」的點餐率相當高，一些客人邊點菜、邊酸吳伯雄。
In reality, Kaohsiung's Red Roofing Tile House restaurant specialty "KMT-CCP Sell Out Taiwan Special Meal" already had a dish entitled Neckless Bear, [a kind of sweet and sour rib dish], making fun of Wu Po-hsiung's "spine" [a pun on selling out Taiwan]. Boss Liu says "The last couple of days orders for Neckless Bear have been heavy, with some customers ordering the dish on one hand and giving Wu a tongue-lashing on the other."
「國共賣台特餐」的招牌菜，是嘲諷馬英九的「露出馬腳」（滷豬腳），其餘包括「連戰連敗蝦」、「清蒸宋楚魚」等三十幾道菜餚，菜名令人莞爾。
In addition to its famous dish, the "KMT-CCP Sell Out Taiwan Special Meal", the restaurant makes fun of Ma Ying-jeou with 「露出馬腳」 (stewed pig's feet), and also offers the "Lien Chan Keep Losing Shrimp", "Steamed Soong Chu-yu Fish" and more than thirty similar dishes. The names of the dishes make people laugh.
紅瓦厝是家不接待中國顧客的餐廳，餐廳外醒目的標語寫著「拒絕招待中國人及台奸」，經常有載著中國觀光團的遊覽車到此拍照，上個月還有三桌中國客不信邪進入，點菜時被劉明松發現，通通請出去。
Red Roofing Tile House restaurant does not serve visitors from China. On the outside of the restaurant is a big sign that says "We Refuse to Serve Chinese and Taiwanese Traitors". Buses carrying Chinese tourist groups regularly stop here to take photos. Last month three tables worth of Chinese tourists who refused to believe this statement went inside. When they were ordering, Liu Ming-sung found out who they were, and threw them all out of his restaurant.
劉明松強調，他和吳伯雄都是客家人，對於吳的作風，他長期看在眼裡；這次吳在中國的肉麻言行，他一點都不訝異。
Liu Ming-sung stressed that even though he and Wu were both Hakkas, he has been watching Wu's style for a long time, and was not surprised at all by Wu's disgusting behavior.
專程來吃「無脖熊」的陳先生罵說，「島內」這個詞聽到就讓人反感，如果台灣是島內，那馬英九豈不是島主？國民黨人士屢次在中國降格以求，民眾真的看不下去。
A Mr. Chen, making a special trip to eat the Neckless Bear dish, said that the term "within the island" filled him with disgust. If on Taiwan is "within the island", than Ma Ying-jeou is merely the island's Boss. KMT officials have lowered themselves to beg the Chinese for favors several times, said Mr. Chen, and people can't stand seeing that.
UPDATE: Lively discussion in the comments below.
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I'm not familiar with the southern Hakka community, but at a distance, I've always felt them more pro-Taiwanese independence compared to the Miaoli-Hsinchu-Taoyuan Hakka community, which is deep, deep Blue.
ReplyDeleteAnyone can confirm?
Pretty funny dish names. Koala = 無尾熊
There is definitely mentally ill people on the blue side, but I think some green like him simple have to quickly consider about a subscription for asylum, quite despicable.
ReplyDeleteHi Michael, might want to take a look. Taiwan Journal has been relaunched as Taiwan Today. Look at the website and, well, well, the government is linking directly to the pro-Blue China Times and United Daily News but no other papers (say Liberty Times, Apple Daily, Taipei Times...)! What the heck? So baldly favoring papers that support the government?!
ReplyDeleteWhy will you be making a reservation at a restaurant simply because it refuses to serve mainland Chinese tourists? As someone who has lived in both Taiwan and the mainland I am aware of the searing tensions that exist on both sides of the straits but I fail to see how this kind of action should be celebrated. It wasn't so long ago that 'dogs and Chinese' weren't permitted in certain establishments in Shanghai. Presumably, you would not have embraced such action had you been around at the time. Indeed, in my country (the UK) there was a time when signs outside hotels (and doubtless restaurants) made it clear that the presence of any Irish was not welcomed. Again, I'm sure you'd agree that this is not a period of time we would want to return to.
ReplyDeleteBy refusing to serve mainland Chinese tourists I'm afraid the owner of the above restaurant makes himself, and anyone who would support his action, look small and does the island a disservice. Why should this be cause for a reservation?
LOL.
ReplyDeleteChef Liu to tourists: "No neckless bear soup for you!"
Surprised about the Ma dish though. No horse's, uh, RUMP roast?
Peter:
ReplyDeleteThe "no dogs and Chinese" is an expression of racism. The "no Chinese" sign here is an act of defiance against colonialism. When the Chinese cease to threaten to murder this man and annex his nation, they will be welcome in his place. Until that time, he has every right to refuse them.
Don't confuse perps and victims, Peter.
Michael
I'm not familiar with the southern Hakka community, but at a distance, I've always felt them more pro-Taiwanese independence compared to the Miaoli-Hsinchu-Taoyuan Hakka community, which is deep, deep Blue.Interesting, I've never heard this.
ReplyDeleteAnon, I'll have a look at Taiwan Today.
ReplyDeleteYou can't condemn Kuo Kuan-ying on the one hand and support this restaurant on the other. I see a disturbing double standard here.
ReplyDeleteIf you think it is a bad idea for Chinese tourists to come to Taiwan then you need to clearly argue why this is the case.
Ditto to Peter's comments. Chinese tourists have got nothing to do with their govt choices. Should we be banning all Americans because of their govt's wars?
ReplyDeleteIt seems that in the world of TI, all that water surrounding Taiwan on all sides doesn't exist and Taiwan is not really an island.
Peter says:It wasn't so long ago that 'dogs and Chinese' weren't permitted in certain establishments in Shanghai.
ReplyDeleteMichael Turton responds:The "no dogs and Chinese" is an expression of racism. The "no Chinese" sign here is an act of defiance against colonialism. When the Chinese cease to threaten to murder this man and annex his nation, they will be welcome in his place. Until that time, he has every right to refuse them.
A better comparison would be to restaurants in Shanghai that refused to serve the western and Japanese colonizers (were there such restaurants?)
I do understand the concern about racism. People from China didn't choose to be born there. There may be some who visit who abhor China's imperialism, and it doesn't seem fair to not serve them.
But what else can a restaurant owner do to express his anger at Chinese imperialism? I can't fault him for trying.
But as a practical matter - he might try being a tad more tolerant. Perhaps keep the sign, but if any Chinese tourists try to come in, let them come and give them an earful. Tell them the other side of the story. Show them the menu and the disdain for Ma and company.
Or just say, "you can come in if you admit that Taiwan is not part of China". Such adjustments would show the defiance but would also show that Taiwanese are willing to be friendly to those who are friendly to them, and that the hatred comes from Chinese behavior not from racial hatred.
"When the Chinese cease to threaten to murder this man and annex his nation, they will be welcome in his place. Until that time, he has every right to refuse them."
ReplyDeleteObviously this green supporter didn't get the memo from his Mayor. Didn't the so-called pro-independence Chen Chu/陳菊 go to China to get more Chinese tourists to visit the city of Kaohsiung?
Trivial acts like this don't help Taiwan. It merely shows the schizophrenic nature of the DPP/Pan Green politicians and supporters. Pathetic.
Sometimes the petty games that the green vs. blue camps engage in are very childish. On the surface this comes across as childish as well, but on a deeper level it is setting a bad precedent. Isn't this akin to segregation which in turn can lead to apartheid? Is this really something you want to be condoning?
ReplyDeleteMichael,
ReplyDeleteIsn't the restaurant owner conflating the Chinese people with the Chinese government? The people have no say in China's government. So, is it not "...the Chinese [government that] threaten[s] to murder this man and annex his nation"?
I could understand if he refused service to Chinese state employees, but your average Zhou? To me, that seems like blaming the wrong person.
David:
ReplyDeleteYou can't condemn Kuo Kuan-ying on the one hand and support this restaurant on the other. I see a disturbing double standard here.
I don't equate perps and victims, David. I don't equate colonists with the colonized. And I don't think the same moral codes apply to those who threaten others with murder, and those who respond to that threat.
Kuo is clearly a racist shit spewing colonialist hate, Liu is clearly reacting to the colonialist political objectives of the Chinese. Nowhere does his sign claim or imply that Chinese are an inferior race, people, or culture, unlike Kuo.
If you think it is a bad idea for Chinese tourists to come to Taiwan then you need to clearly argue why this is the case.
I can't recall saying it was a bad idea for Chinese tourists to come to Taiwan. Where did you get that from? I think it is a wonderful idea, so that they can experience the full range of Taiwanese responses to them while spending lots of money here.
Or just say, "you can come in if you admit that Taiwan is not part of China". Such adjustments would show the defiance but would also show that Taiwanese are willing to be friendly to those who are friendly to them, and that the hatred comes from Chinese behavior not from racial hatred.
Yes, there are many possible ways. But he's scored a brilliant marketing scoop: Chinese tourists take his photograph and distribute among their friends. Taidu goes viral. Brilliant.
Sometimes the petty games that the green vs. blue camps engage in are very childish. On the surface this comes across as childish as well, but on a deeper level it is setting a bad precedent. Isn't this akin to segregation which in turn can lead to apartheid? Is this really something you want to be condoning?
Yeesh. How many times must it be said: this is a political message that has nothing to do with culture or race. If Chinese didn't threaten to annex Taiwan and murder its people, then there'd be no sign in front of his store. Simple as that.
Isn't the restaurant owner conflating the Chinese people with the Chinese government? The people have no say in China's government. So, is it not "...the Chinese [government that] threaten[s] to murder this man and annex his nation"?
(1)I have never met a Chinese who doesn't think that Taiwanese ought to be killed unless they agree to submit. I have heard they exist, but have never met one. So for all intents and purposes the two are the same.
(2) How else to get the message across that things need to change? The average Zhou is exactly the person whose mind needs to be reached -- government cadres follow the government line. Tourists need to experience the whole range of opinion and reaction here in Taiwan.
Should we be banning all Americans because of their govt's wars?
If individuals wish to not serve Americans in their establishments, that would be great. It might open some eyes in the US.
Believe it or not, it is entirely morally permissible to resist oppression and threats of violence.
Michael
FYI:
ReplyDeletesegregation |sɛgrɪˈgeɪʃ(ə)n|noun
the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart : the segregation of pupils with learning difficulties.
• the enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment : an official policy of racial segregation.
• Genetics the separation of pairs of alleles at meiosis and their independent transmission via separate gametes.
apartheid |əˈpɑːtheɪt|noun
historical
(in South Africa) a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.
Note that in either definition there is no emphasis on one race being inferior. However, it is implied.
If you want the Chinese tourists to come to Taiwan and spend their money you have to let them in the store ...and accept their money.
I think that what Readin said is interesting. Green supporters should all just hang signs on their doors saying something like, "By entering this premise and purchasing goods you agree that Taiwan is a sovereign nation." Then, follow that up after a purchase by saying, "I am glad that you agree with out policy." and then point to the sign. It makes a point without coming across as childish. It also shows a bit more intellect on the Lao Ban's part.
This reminds me of the silly "freedom' fries euphemism used by some conservatives in the United States as a result of anti-French sentiment in the United States: equally pointless and equally stupid on its merits and message.
ReplyDelete這樣台灣就能獨立了嗎? 簡直是無聊到極點了 更無聊的是還有你這種人會去附和
Hehe...I will go to that restaurant for sure when I have an opportunity.
ReplyDeleteNotice also that this is not "racist" because the sign also say no serve to "Taiwanese" Traitors.
ReplyDeleteIt's not about race, but something else. Perhaps it is just a reflection of disgust. Disgust about Chinese government's attempt to annex Taiwan, pressuring Taiwan, and just doesn't leave Taiwan alone. Disgust about most Chinese taking side with their government and ignore the pain of others such as Taiwanese and Tibetan. Most disgust of all, those Taiwanese that claims they are Taiwanese at the same time they sell out Taiwan for their own profit.
I am not Liu, so I cannot say for sure...but I think that's how he feels.
This reminds me of the silly "freedom' fries euphemism used by some conservatives in the United States as a result of anti-French sentiment in the United States: equally pointless and equally stupid on its merits and message.
ReplyDelete這樣台灣就能獨立了嗎? 簡直是無聊到極點了 更無聊的是還有你這種人會去附和
Yes, they are exactly the same. This is because, as everyone knows, the French on so many occasions threatened to invade the United States and annex it, murder its people, and even today, point hundreds of missiles at the US and threaten to attack it unless it submits to rule from Paris, while suppressing US political identity and international space and arguing that US culture is French culture. The two situations are so identical, so completely similar, that only the deliberately obtuse could see anything different in them.
Note that in either definition there is no emphasis on one race being inferior. However, it is implied.Is the owner advocating segregation of different races? Or political action against oppression? If you claim that he is advocating the former, please explain why only Chinese from China are targeted, and not Chinese from Singapore, the US, Thailand, Vietnam, etc.
Seriously -- do people take stupid pills before posting on this topic? Apparently there is a whole section of the population that is unable to tell the difference between racism and political action.
Michael
I think that what Readin said is interesting. Green supporters should all just hang signs on their doors saying something like, "By entering this premise and purchasing goods you agree that Taiwan is a sovereign nation." Then, follow that up after a purchase by saying, "I am glad that you agree with out policy." and then point to the sign. It makes a point without coming across as childish. It also shows a bit more intellect on the Lao Ban's part.
ReplyDeleteI think that is a great idea too. So is Mr. Liu's. I think that Chinese should see the whole range of responses to their imperialism, from earnest dialoguers to those who would burn the buildings they've stayed in and salt the ground they have walked on. Only then will it be driven home that Taiwan does not want to be part of China.
It is not "childish" to refrain from serving people who threaten to kill you.
Michael
Matt H.: We also segregate violent people into these so called "jails". This may lead to... public safety.
ReplyDeleteThis is a bit more abstract than that, but if he doesn't want the money of these folks who want him to submit to authoritarian rule, I can't blame him.
Let see, Mainland and overseas Chinese and Taiwanese traitors can come visit Taiwan and stay in Taiwan respectively, but they won't be service by some hard-core TI'ers.
ReplyDeleteThat is just crazy or evil or both. Then again, people can rationalize all sorts of craziness and evilness.
Wonder how he defines Taiwanese traitors? Would the mayor be a traitor? Would people who don't piss green be traitors? LOL.
Did you see this story about Ma protecting his overlords?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/271083,taiwan-man-arrested-for-threatening-chinese-gymnasts.html
It's the beginning of the white terror all over again--make no mistake that this is just the first shot that will eventually lead to self-censorship just like the commies did in HK. Note that the guy did not even do anything, but the government put ONE HUNDRED police to protect the Chicoms, went so far as to lift FINGERPRINTS OFF THE PHONE just so Ma has someone to serve up to Hu. I'll bet the guy gets 25 years along with CSB, another fine example of our impartial judiciary.
I'm going to point out the Machiavellian side of all this:
ReplyDelete1) This restaurant is only going to get more and more fame in China.
2) More and more Chinese tourists will be curious.
3) They will go to Kaohsiung and take pictures outside this restaurant. And I bet there will again be a few that will try to get served, and they will again get an earful.
4) GOTO 1)
Overall, people in China are going to realize more and more that Taiwanese don't like this imperialist with racist characteristics bullshit. If they try to put themselves in the shoes of Taiwanese and they try to understand the palpable anger here, then this is awesome.
Sure, Taiwanese and Chinese can and should work together and understand each other when there are the right opportunities. And feeling the pain, the outrage of Taiwanese is part of that.
"It is not 'childish' to refrain from serving people who threaten to kill you."
ReplyDeletehear! hear! i totally agree.
"Seriously -- do people take stupid pills before posting on this topic? Apparently there is a whole section of the population that is unable to tell the difference between racism and political action."
ReplyDeleteSeriously, such pointless actions are given the status of "political action"?!! You are either joking or delusional, or you are simply a "petty" person even with something as difficult as TI.
No wonder the TI crowds will never achieve their TI dreams. If all they have in their TI "army" and supporters are cowards like Mr. Liu and you who will do nothing more than just "Jib Jab" and still get praises...
China must have realized that with TI leaders like CSB, Chen Chu and Tsai as well as followers like this Mr Liu, they really have nothing to fear from TI, hence its recent change in strategy in dealing with the TI crowds. People like you totally prove the Chinese leaders right.
Hahahaha... pathetic.
All this shows it is really about time to introduce the concept of high quality (political) satire and some irony to Taiwan.
ReplyDeleteIf somebody knows good Chinese language satirical writing please drop a link here, thats maybe the one "western" achievement I miss most here.
Michael,
ReplyDeleteThis is old news. The restaurent has been "refusing to receive Chinese" and has been serving the "special menu" since March last year, right after the presidential election.
Below (link) is a video report of July 8, 2008 by YuFu, the CEO of the Taiwan Yushan Internet TV Site and also a well known caricaturist.
In the video YuFu interviewed the restaurent owner Mr. Liu, who explained why he does what he does:
http://taiwanyes.ning.com/video/1970702:Video:39369
This video was accompanied with a slide show:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/yufujamar/sets/72157605251299490/show/
Note that Mr. Liu does this with a sense of humour. The comments left at your blog so far all seem to take this too seriously. I see his "menu design" as a post-modern activist artwork and I understand what he is trying to express.
E.g. last yesr, when Ma Ying-Jeou claimed that Chinese tourists were coming to save Taiwan's economy, his restaurent displayed a huge placard with one sentence: "Dear President Chiang [Kai-Shek], the Communist Bandits have landed [in Taiwan]". The play here is his use of Chiang's vocabulary ("communist bandits") to express his view of the situation.
The placard changed to "Dear President Chiang [Kai-Shek], the [Taiwan] Area Administrator Ma [Ying-Jeou] finally is overthrowing [the 'ROC' goverment]" a day after the police quashed all displays of the "ROC" flag and mistreated the demonstrators who protested against the visit of the Chinese envoy Chen Yinlin last November.
The second play of Chiang's vocabulary "overthrow" highlighted the irony that Chiang used to live in the fear of Taiwanese overthrowing his "ROC" ruling machine, but it is in fact Chiang's young turk Ma who is doing just that.
See:
The photo posted at 2008/11/15 13:28 and the one posted at 2008/11/15 13:09 in the following link (the poster didn't post the photos in chronicle order):
http://www.socialforce.net/phpBB/topic_21850.html
Mr. Liu is using his restaurent to make his points. It is a mild form of dissent as compared with Red Army Faction's actions, don't you think?
Michael writes that he has 'never met a Chinese who doesn't think that Taiwanese ought to be killed unless they agree to submit.' This is an incredibly ignorant claim. My fiancé is Chinese, I have many Chinese friends, and I have been lucky enough to study in China. This has given me the opportunity to discuss the Taiwan issue with a wide range of people. I can confirm that not one person I have ever spoke to believed that anyone from Taiwan should be killed if they proposed that Taiwan was not part of China.
ReplyDeleteMichael perhaps you have become too caught up in the pressure cooker that is Taiwanese politics and susceptible to all claims that are made on the island about their mainland cousins. On almost every issue (perhaps with the exception of Japanese war crimes) the Chinese population taken as a whole has a broad spectrum of opinions. Perhaps you would do well to actually speak to some mainland Chinese instead of making facile claims such as that above.
Mainland Chinese restaurants should retaliate: "No Taidu allowed". Anyway, I think it is very funny. If that is the best they can do, then the Chinese people do not have to worry at all. I'd say reunification will be achieved within 20 years peacefully.
ReplyDeleteIt reminds me of the restaurant in Taipei that subversively intended to keep Waishengren out by posting a sign that welcomed all Japanese tourists.
ReplyDeleteI can confirm that not one person I have ever spoke to believed that anyone from Taiwan should be killed if they proposed that Taiwan was not part of China.
ReplyDeleteI can't help it if the people you talk to won't face the consequences of their political beliefs. The consequence of believing that Taiwan should submit to authoritarian rule is that they should be killed if they do not. That the people you have talked to refuse to speak of that elephant in the room doesn't
make it go away. I suspect you simply failed to ask the right questions.
How many of them supported the outcome of a free, independent, and democratic Taiwan? That would be zero, I'll bet.
,Perhaps you would do well to actually speak to some mainland Chinese instead of making facile claims such as that above.I've spoken to many Chinese, Peter.
Seriously, such pointless actions are given the status of "political action"?!! You are either joking or delusional, or you are simply a "petty" person even with something as difficult as TI.Yes, you're right. Maybe Mr Liu ought to do something serious, like execute his political enemies like the CCP does, instead of engaging in peaceful, non-threatening protest.
Michael
I think a lot of people here are missing a very important point. Whether or not you agree with this restaurant owner's tactics, you must be able to see the fact that political pressure by the Chinese government is having very negative effects on the psychology of many Taiwanese. Such effects are durable.
ReplyDeleteTrue, many blues in the north and center of the country are not completely against the idea of more engagement with China, but much of the South still seems resolutely suspicious. These suspicions will only grow unless the Ma administration and the KMT learn to act with transparency.
Ma was supposed to usher in a new era of cooperation. At least that is what he said. It seems that he is actually causing quite a bit of division. And such division can last generations.
This whole thing is ridiculous. After 5/17, the pan-green's looked like they might finally be regrouping and making some inroads, and then idiots like Mr Liu come along, and 2 steps back we all go. The moderate, center swing voters and light blues (who the DPP need to win over in 2012) will just have their opinions of the greens as being uneducated country hicks reinforced and the pan-greens will have once again shot themselves in the foot.
ReplyDeleteBlaming the Chinese tourists for the actions of the Chinese govt, a govt that wasn't voted for by its citizens is simply a case of blame the victim (or innocent). Equating their beliefs with those of the CCP is pointless. Until and unless the citizens of China get to vote and overwhelmingly elect leaders who want to invade Taiwan and kill Taiwanese, it's a spurious argument. Further, until education in China is both sufficiently widespread and adequate, and is open to wider influences than just the CCP's brainwashing, any political belief that is held by someone from China is coming more from brainwashing than free, critical thought.
If Mr Liu really wanted to make a difference, he could quietly encourage the tourists and educate them while they're there.
"How many of them supported the outcome of a free, independent, and democratic Taiwan? That would be zero, I'll bet."
ReplyDeleteMichael,
My suitemate from last year is a PRC citizen. On the outset, he gives off the appearance of a hardcore Chinese nationalist. Yet, upon asking 'the right questions,' I found out that he actually doesn't care all that much about Taidu. He told me that he absolutely prefers reunification, but if Taiwanese voted for independence, [u]he'd accept that.[/u] In other words, he is willing to accept “the outcome of a free, independent, and democratic Taiwan.” Why? Because he just doesn’t care enough about the issue. His words.
You said that “for all intents and purposes,” there is no difference between the Chinese people and their government because [b]you’ve[/b] never met anyone “who didn’t think that Taiwanese...” As you know, it only takes one counterexample to disprove a claim. Well, my ex-suitemate is my counterexample. And, quite frankly, from what I know about today’s Chinese, I highly doubt he’s “the only one” who feels that way.
You’re being fair when you say that there’s nothing wrong with refusing service to Americans, but you know what Ralph Waldo Emerson said about consistency ;) Simply put, I think that there are much better ways of protesting than picking on people who may or may not be responsible for their government’s policy. To give an example, I also doubt that all Japanese supported their country’s actions in World War II. Yet, according to you, if a Chinese “never met” any Japanese who didn’t toe the government line, then he’d be justified in hating all Japanese (“protest”). I can’t agree.
@Peter - The 'dogs and Chinese' sign is, as far as anyone can tell, a myth. No eye-witness, photograph, newspaper account etc. substantiates it - and you would think there would be at least one. This is not to say that there wasn't discrimination in colonial-era Shanghai, just that this particular example is almost certainly an invention.
ReplyDeleteLikewise, whilst prejudice and discrimination (particularly in employment) against Irish people was widespread especially in the mid and latter part of the 19th century both in the US and the UK there simply never was a wide-spread overt ban on Irishmen in hotels/restaurants etc. in the UK. Can you imagine George Bernard Shaw being turned away by a London restaurant? What there was was a colour bar, which was successfully challenged during the 60s and 70s.
@Michael Turton -
1) I have met plenty of mainlanders who do not support military action against Taiwan. Some on grounds of pacifism, other on grounds of opposing nationalism, others still because they think it would be a war of aggression. Despite what you seem to think, not all mainlanders are brainwashed robots.
Even the ones who do support military action usually make it conditional on a declaration of independence, and do so on grounds which an entire life's worth of indoctrination through propaganda has told them are valid. In fact, I have only met one person who actually supported an immediate invasion of Taiwan was a particularly annoying and childish university student. The fact that the internet is populated by such people is not surprising.
2)The Chinese people are the first and greatest victims of their government. Discriminating against them simply because of what their government (which many will have no say in the running of) has done is insane.
3) Since mainland tourists include Tibetans, Mongolians, Manchurians, Uighurs and other minorities, a blanket ban on all mainland tourists on grounds of 'opposing colonialism' is absurd.
4)'Political action' would be hanging a Tibetan or TSU flag in the restaurant. Measures like this are sheer childishness. No, the actions of the CCP and the KMT do not matter in this, the fact that other people act like childish dictatorial jackasses is no excuse.
Whilst he has the right to freedom of speech, this does not grant the right to discriminate on racial grounds - and the sign most definitely does do that. If I put up a sign here in the UK saying 'no French or EU traitors', or if in Scotland I put up a sign saying 'no English or Scottish traitors', this would not be a political statement, as it explicitly excludes all French/English people whatever their political views.
5) I have to second the first commenter, the Hakkanese in Miaoli were solidly KMT, people there often talked about the role they had played in crushing a particular rebellion against the emperor as an example of their perfidiousness - but I cannot remember the exact details.
Bold! I love it. The next time I'm in Taiwan, I'll be sure to eat there.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of you are taking this way to seriously. Regardless of if you think this is overboard on behalf of some "hardcore-TIers" or reasonable, whatever. From a purely business stand-point- it is a great move by the owner. I'm sure he's getting a lot more business than before he started doing this. After all, aren't Taiwanese known for thinking about money first?
ReplyDeleteIn regards to whether he should be supported or celebrated or what not, maybe yes, maybe no- but his decision should be respected.
@Peter - The 'dogs and Chinese' sign is, as far as anyone can tell, a myth. No eye-witness, photograph, newspaper account etc. substantiates it - and you would think there would be at least one. This is not to say that there wasn't discrimination in colonial-era Shanghai, just that this particular example is almost certainly an invention.Thanks, FOARP, I knew that but didn't want to get sidetracked into a debate about it.
ReplyDeleteWhilst he has the right to freedom of speech, this does not grant the right to discriminate on racial grounds - and the sign most definitely does do that.Bullshit, for he selects people from a particular nation, not all people of that ethnicity. Please offer evidence that ethnic Chinese from other nations have been refused service. His position is clearly political.
Refusing to serve people who want to kill you and take your land is not discrimination.
Yes, I know the Chinese are the first and greatest victims of their government. So what? Over there, they are victims. Over here, they are perps. If they don't want political action aimed at them, they should stop invading other people's countries.
Refusing to serve people who want to kill you is legitimate political action -- in this case, dramatic and effective (look how many people have taken notice). The use of emotive and empty terms like "childish" is simply a pathetic attempt to win by rhetoric what cannot be won by logic.
....Even the ones who do support military action usually make it conditional on a declaration of independence,Thanks for making my point, FOARP. In other words, all the ones you know support annexing Taiwan, and some "peacefully." Neither you nor anyone else on this thread can say "I know lots of Chinese who support an independent, democratic Taiwan." And if you don't support that, you support a policy of violence against Taiwanese one way or another -- you simply don't want to face the consequences of a policy you advocate. Moral cowardice doth not an advocate of peace make.
4)'Political action' would be hanging a Tibetan or TSU flag in the restaurant. Measures like this are sheer childishness. ROFL. If we were arguing about PRC tourists complaining about a Tibetan flag, you'd be here crying that such a flag was "sheer childishness." You're just a concern troll.
Note that I never argued Chinese are "brainwashed robots." My position is quite different.
You’re being fair when you say that there’s nothing wrong with refusing service to Americans, but you know what Ralph Waldo Emerson said about consistency ;) No, actually I'm expressing a wish. If only there had been widespread sanctions on Americans because of Iraq....
Simply put, I think that there are much better ways of protesting than picking on people who may or may not be responsible for their government’s policy.Simply put, Chinese in Taiwan need to see the whole range of responses to them, from militant rejection to earnest engagement. Without the former, the latter will have no strength. Each part of the response legitimates the others.
Perhaps now they will go home and spread the word and make it possible for the government to change its hateful policy without upsetting the populace too much.
This whole thing is ridiculous. After 5/17, the pan-green's looked like they might finally be regrouping and making some inroads, and then idiots like Mr Liu come along, and 2 steps back we all goWaaaayyy overreacting. This restaurant has been here since March of last year, Craig. It has had zero effect on Taiwan politics.
Michael
3) Since mainland tourists include Tibetans, Mongolians, Manchurians, Uighurs and other minorities, a blanket ban on all mainland tourists on grounds of 'opposing colonialism' is absurd.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, note the wording is Chinese, not mainlanders.
And come on, if those Tibetans and Mongolians etc think themselves as Chinese then they are Chinese, and why should they be treated differently from other Chinese people?
On the other hand, if they don't think they are Chinese, but Tibetans and Mongolian, then they are not Chinese, thus would not be inside the ban category. They would be welcomed into the restaurant I imagine.
And who says annexing Taiwan necessary means wars or direct military action? Especially in the current situation, if pan Green doesn't get their act together, Taiwan could be annexed or subjugated even more in the next few years. Let's say China annex Taiwan without firing a single bullet, do you think that is a good thing or a bad thing? To some Taiwanese that is still pretty bad. And afterward, Taiwanese will have even less say on their own fate. And isn't that colonialism?
For example, I can say I am a non-violent person. I don't want to fight. But, I can bribe the house keepers of this mansion to let me into the house and steal everything because I think those things belong to me for some reasons. Hey, I am Pacifist, but am I a good guy or a bad guy?
Also note that there are already some Tibetan in exile in Taiwan...I wonder how they feel if Taiwan become part of China...maybe a bit scary.
Richard is right though, maybe we are all taking this too seriously. But still I just want to go and pay a visit sometimes, hehehe...
Oh, sorry, just thought it would be well to reminds people about 228 in this case. Not to promote hate etc but I think it offers a good food for thought in this argument.
ReplyDeleteBefore 228, when KMT took over Taiwan, there is no war, and there is no invasion. Everyone supports it, but look what happens next? A total disaster for Taiwan. And what can the international community do? Absolutely nothing. And it's not like they don't know about it (check out all those books and news reports from around the world back then). But yea...I guess after 228 massacre, it is peaceful. No big protests and no big revolutions.
Again, remember what B. Franklin once said "Even peace may be purchased at too high a price." Annexing Taiwan peacefully means peace, perhaps, but it does not mean good fortune for Taiwan...
Taiwan Today is publishing 10 to 12 translated articles per day of which one or possibly two will come from Liberty Times. These pieces will not be overly critical of the government and are there simply to try and make the "service" appear balanced. If you want decent news in comprehensible English on Taiwan, then steer clear of TT.
ReplyDeletei totally agree that wu should be condemned and the entire kmt for that matter for their lack of backbone but i dun agree with the sign...it just 'lowers' ones position to those of those nationalistic chinese govt/chinese people whom are just as irrational as this restaurant owner..i think its better he put up another sign which is more conciliatory but just as eye catching and allow chinese tourists in..the best way to change minds is to have a policy of engagement with the other side and not a policy of antagonism..from what i know, mainland chinese often demonize the taiwanese independence supporters and ppl from the south, all this is just gonna reinforce their stereotypes when being extra nice to them, explaining one's position would shock their existing values system and even if they continue to believe that taiwan is part of china, at least they cannot demonise taiwanese supporters anymore as they'll come to see them as humanbeings too...
ReplyDeleteMichael, I'm aware it's from March last year, however it's in the news now. Actions like this will serve more to turn the light blues and center swing voters away than they will to make a valid point.
ReplyDeleteI can see how this might help out Taiwan's tourism industry...
ReplyDeleteWang Yang returns to China:
"Hey Wang Yang, how was your trip to Taiwan?"
"It was incredible! I was refused service at a restaurant just because I am Chinese."
"Oh no! Why would they do such a thing?"
"They think we support an authoritarian regime, yada yada yada. Wanna see pictures?"
"Yea! Oh man this is cool. Now I want to go to Taiwan and be refused service as well!"
"Great! All you need to do is pretend that you enjoy the fact that your government is an undemocratic authoritarian regime."
"No problem!"
Guys, I gotta take leave of this debate until tonight, about 12 hours from now.
ReplyDeleteVery sorry for the inconvenience. I'll be putting up comments at that time, and responding.
Michael
The restaurant owner welcomes Chinese citizens who agree that Taiwan is a country. Racist? I think a lot of people are reading the whole thing wrong. Watch the video posted by SY. It doesn't have the gloomy deadpan seriousness of a racist. It's meant to be funny, dudes.
ReplyDeleteThe year 1676, and the Zaporozhian Cossacks have just beaten back an attack by the Ottoman army… The Sultan writes a letter to the Cossacks, which glosses over the military defeat:
ReplyDeleteAs the Sultan; son of Muhammad; brother of the Sun and Moon; grandson and viceroy of God; ruler of the kingdoms of Macedonia, Babylon, Jerusalem, Upper and Lower Egypt; emperor of emperors; sovereign of sovereigns; extraordinary knight, never defeated; steadfast guardian of the tomb of Jesus Christ; trustee chosen by God himself; the hope and comfort of Muslims; confounder and great defender of Christians—I command you, the Zaporozhian Cossacks, to submit to me voluntarily and without any resistance, and to desist from troubling me with your attacks.
—Turkish Sultan Mehmed IV
Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks to the Turkish Sultan:
You, turkish devil and damned devil's brother and friend, secretary to Lucifer himself. What the devil kind of knight are you, that can't slay a hedgehog with your naked arse? The devil shits, and your army eats. You will not, you son of a bitch, make subjects of Christian sons; we've no fear of your army, by land and by sea we will battle with thee, fuck your mother.
You Babylonian scullion, Macedonian wheelwright, brewer of Jerusalem, goat-fucker of Alexandria, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, Armenian pig, Podolian villain, catamite of Tartary, hangman of Kamyanets, and fool of all the world and underworld, an idiot before God, grandson of the Serpent, and the crick in our dick. Pig's snout, mare's arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, screw your own mother!
So the Zaporozhians declare, you lowlife. You won't even be herding Christian pigs. Now we'll conclude, for we don't know the date and don't own a calendar; the moon is in the sky, the year in the book, the day's the same over here as it is over there; for this kiss our arse!
-- Koshovyi Otaman Ivan Sirko, with the whole Zaporozhian Host
The story o this letter exchange is probably apocryphal, but it seemed appropriate here. For a famous painting based on the story, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks
Some news: Hotels, especially better ones, are getting more and more enquiries from Taiwanese travelers about whether Chinese are staying in the hotel – and the travelers are staying elsewhere if Chinese are present. It has nothing to do with discrimination or politics; people simply don’t want to be around the hocking and spitting, the belching, the over-loud talking, and the arrogance. But I guess the Chinese government will get wise to this soon and will require pre-travel primers for its citizens on how to behave while here.
ReplyDeleteWhich leads to a question: Why in the heck does the DPP not want Chinese students to come here? Chinese students might or might not embarrass Taiwanese students scholastically, but they’ll certainly politicize Taiwanese students – and not in any way China would like. The DPP would benefit big from that – unless Ma started asserting R.O.C. identity to China, spoke out more for and actually defended democracy, etc. (Then he would get the political benefits from Taiwanese shock at the initial attitudes and behavior of Chinese students.) I still hold out faint hopes he’ll do this – very faint hopes – once he gets the party chairmanship. In any case, nothing that I can see would better help Taiwan retain genuine self-determination than bringing PRC students here would. Nothing undermines the Han-chauvinist cause more than having more people meet Han chauvinists in person. Wouldn’t the Red Roofing Tile House be forgotten in the welter of conflicts that would ensue?
And most Chinese students, I bet, once Taiwanese, through human-to-human interaction, give them reasons to re-think things, will see and feel the inanity of ever imaging that China’s taking Taiwan entails a sacred principle.
The restaurant owner welcomes Chinese citizens who agree that Taiwan is a country. Racist? I think a lot of people are reading the whole thing wrong. Watch the video posted by SY. It doesn't have the gloomy deadpan seriousness of a racist. It's meant to be funny, dudes.
ReplyDeleteThanks. There sure are a lot of people who can't tell the difference between racism and political action, though I suspect it is simply a trollish attempt to engage in smears.
Anyway, thanks everyone who commented.
Michael
It just doesn't seem like a very good strategy to address a country's population as if it was in line with it's unelected government. This will just drive people to defend their government - it's basic human nature, we are social animals and will instinctively defend our group.
ReplyDeleteMuch better to separate them from their government - find common ground and argue from that: "You and me - we are friendly people, we want to be good neighbors. But the way your government is denying you your political rights, allowing corruption to result in poison being put into your food, and stockpiling missiles to attack Taiwan - that's really bad."
After all, both the people living in Taiwan and the people in China suffer from the aggression and corruption of the PRC government.
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