UPDATE: See below. After finally finding video of the event, it is clear that "push" is highly suspect and instead the DPP story that he tripped over a tree root or something similar appears to be more likely. I'm tentatively concluding that the "push" is a media construction, unless someone can show me video of an actual push. Thanks to maddog for alerting me to this problem. Suspect everything, trust nothing.
Max Hirsch of Kyodo reports on the "violence" directed at the ARATs representative visiting Tainan, the center of Taiwanese nationalism, in his capacity as a Dean in Xiamen...
Zhang Mingqing, vice chairman of Beijing's Association for Relations Across the Taiwan Strait (ARATS), was mobbed while visiting a Confucian temple in the southern city of Tainan, with a crowd of livid protesters pushing him down and smashing his car, local media said.
Local TV footage showed the envoy, his hair and clothes disheveled, struggling to get back on his feet and grasp for his eyeglasses, which had fallen off his face amid the kerfuffle.
At one point, a protester climbed onto Zhang's car and stomped on the roof and hood, while a short elderly woman swang feebly at the vehicle with her yellowed crutch. Security personnel appeared in short supply, and sometimes completely absent, as the mob encircled Zhang several times.
The envoy was not injured.
ARATS oversees contact and negotiations with Taipei for Beijing.
The violence came as Beijing gears up for historic talks in Taipei, with ARATS Chairman Chen Yunlin slated to lead a big delegation to the island.
Although Chang is visiting in his capacity as a dean at Xiamen University, the private visit is widely seen as a litmus test for how Chen and his entourage would be received and protected here.
"This kind of violence comes as a blow to Taiwan's democratic society and will negatively affect cross-strait exchanges," warned the Straits Exchange Foundation, ARATS' counterpart in Taiwan, in a statement.
Let's see...the official representative of a nation that threatens to murder Taiwanese by the thousand in order to annex their nation arrives and he's only pushed to the ground? [UPDATE: Maybe not even that]. I'd say the response was quite restrained -- when you consider SARS, and melamine, and pesticides, and the Taiwanese jailed in China, and the wholesale murder of a boatload of Taiwanese tourists a while back, and the suppression of Taiwan's international space, the attacks on Taiwanese and their symbols at sporting events overseas....
UPDATE 1: ESWN has more here, though you have to filter out his pro-Blue bias. For example, ESWN slyly claims that there were no tree roots around (the DPP fellow said that he tripped on a tree root), a glance at this video shows that indeed there were large trees all over the place. There's video of the student protest here, and here, juxtaposed with protesters outside here, and a version of The Push here (another here but camera is blocked at the crucial moment). In this version you can see that he does indeed appear to trip as he is backing away. Around :57 the DPP guy enters the video, and you can clearly see that when Zhang falls the DPP is facing the other way and he does appear to fall backward suddenly, not as if pushed, but as if tripping. No one around him, nor Zhang himself, appears to be prepared for this fall -- no one is bracing or reacting to a pusher. Further the DPP guys picks him up right away. Does anyone have video clearly showing "the push?" All the videos on Youtube have the same angle and come from Blue sources... UPDATE 2: this one here reports that he fell down in the midst of the chaos without calling it a push. UPDATE 3: If Zhang was pushed in front of numerous witnesses, how come no one present jumped on the pusher, detained the pusher, or in any way pointed to or identified the pusher after the fact? UPDATE 4: AP has better video. Right into the video someone appears to put his hands on Zhang but does not appear to push him. UPDATE 5: The Taipei Times has a list of Zhang's many threats toward Taiwan in an editorial today. If you threaten to murder people, you can hardly fault them for reacting.... On May 24, 2004, he said: “We will smash the separatist schemes of the Taiwanese independence movement at all costs.” UPDATE 8: Feiren left me a comment to say:
One small update. The Liberty Times and Central News Agency are reporting that the guy who jumping on the car was Lin Jin-xun (林進勳). Lin has been a DPP party member since 1986 and apparently is well-known in Tainan for his confrontational activism.
Lin apologized to the DPP and Taiwanese society for his actions but refused to apologize to Zhang Mingqing, who Lin says is an "enemy." Lin asked the party to discipline him but said that he would fight for Taiwan's sovereignty and called on the people of Taiwan to stand up against the KMT's alliance with the CCP to sell out Taiwan.
CNN reported:
Pictures from Taiwan TV stations showed about a dozen protesters surrounding Zhang at a Tainan temple commemorating Confucius, then toppling him to the ground while shouting anti-communist and pro-independence slogans.UPDATE: CNN is wrong. As the video clearly shows, he was helped to his feet by the DPP's Wang. Immediately.
"Taiwan does not belong to China," protesters shouted.
Zhang was helped to his feet by an escort and rushed to a waiting vehicle. A middle-aged man stomped and banged on the vehicle but did not attempt to prevent it from leaving the scene.
The attack on Zhang comes several weeks before a planned visit by Chen Yun-lin, Zhang's boss and the point man in pushing for unity across the 100-mile-wide Taiwan Strait.
The article goes on to point out that Ma has promised not to discuss the issue of annexing Taiwan to China during his presidency. I think he will keep his promise, since other KMT officials like Chairman Wu and Hon. Chairman Lien Chan are busy doing it for him. Once again I must marvel at the international media's failure to place the backchannel negotiations and Ma's (meaningless) promises in perspective. The Taipei Times reports that one of the protesters was from my university, NCKU (hooray!):
"....had nothing to do with politics." Although the media reported that it is a test run for Taiwanese responses to Chinese envoys here to negotiate the annexation of the island -- nevertheless, it had nothing to do with politics. Good thing that's settled, eh?
The graduate student from National Cheng Kung University said he was born in the US to Taiwanese parents and came back eight years ago to learn Hoklo (also known as Taiwanese) and Taiwanese culture.
“There are many people around the world who have deep respect for Taiwan,” he said in Hoklo. “I don’t want to see Taiwan bullied.”
Chang said he and the other protesters hid the banners in their bags to pass through the security check. Security personnel reluctantly let them in after they failed to show identification cards.
Outside the venue, protesters demanded that Zhang apologize to Taiwanese for China’s export to Taiwan of dairy products and food ingredients that were tainted with the toxic industrial chemical melamine.
They demanded that Zhang either meet them to apologize and hear the voices of Taiwanese or cancel all his activities in Taiwan.
“If our demands are not met, we’ll follow him and protest wherever he goes during his stay in Taiwan,” the activists said
In response, university staff said that Zhang was attending the symposium in his capacity as dean of Xiamen University’s School of Journalism and Communication and the seminar was an academic gathering that had nothing to do with politics.
Hirsch has had several good articles recently on the domestic opposition to the KMT reapproachment with China. One points out that China is worried about the domestic opposition to annexation...with an excellent quote from Derek Mitchell...
China, rattled by protest plans in Taiwan, is wary of locking in dates for what officials say will be a landmark summit in Taipei between the two sides in just weeks, officials and experts say.Another article points out the political fallout from the melamine in the milk scandal, which, as several news agencies reported this week, has spread to rising agents used in local breakfast snacks and other foods. Melamine has also appeared in baked goods from China. The KMT has not helped itself by its great reluctance to press China on the issue, and the appearance that it is sacrificing the health and interests of its own people to serve Beijing, a perception only hardened by Beijing's categorical refusal to give anything to Taiwan except in areas where the DPP had already broken ground. However you slice it, Ma's celebrated "peace" drive has obtained less from the Chinese than the DPP did.
"China got what it wanted with a KMT government, but now it doesn't know what to do with what it got," says Derek Mitchell, a security expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), a U.S. think tank.
One longtime observer of local politics I spoke to in Washington DC last week compared China's policy to how he fished for frogs in rice paddies when he was young. "Just keeping putting the bait higher, and eventually the frog will come out and then you catch him." The point was that China has no incentive to help the KMT, so the KMT will be forced to offer more and more concessions to get anything out of them. Since Ma and the KMT, unlike Chen and the DPP, do not draw the line at sovereignty, where is the limit on what the Blues will be willing to concede?
It's good to see the Taiwanese out there protesting and giving the Chinese representative a hard time, and good to see that the Chinese are worried about Taiwan's raucous domestic politics. If there is one thing that can enable the Taiwanese to keep Taiwan, it is standing up, speaking out, and not going gentle into that good night. Even the US foreign policy establishment, lost in dreams that they will one day wake up and find that either China or the ocean has swallowed Taiwan, would have to pay attention to that.
UPDATE 4: Zhang left Taiwan the next day after complaining that civilized people don't behave that way.
MEDIA NOTES: Both articles use the "split in 1949 mid civil war" terminology. *sigh* The CNN article notes:
He has promised not to discuss the issue of unity with the mainland during his presidency
Subtle point, but that's unity not reunification. Kudos for not assuming we're part of China. Although they do call it the mainland. Folks, the entire Asian mainland is not trying to annex us, just China. And if they had written unity with China it would have been one word, and many characters, shorter....
[Taiwan]
I really do think the violence was a slight over reaction, but then again anything short of this may not have grabbed much media attention internationally.
ReplyDeleteThere were also minor injuries, apparently unreported when Max filed his story.
It's not known if he tripped on his own or if someone really pushed him to the ground. Some KMT are claiming that he was pushed by a DPP councilman but usually what I do with KMT claims is just flip it to the opposite and take that as the more probably description of reality.
ReplyDeleteThe angry protesters were very real though, and it's the second day of protests against the Chinese representative.
Taiwanese are so 'civilized'...but mainlanders can be even more 'civilized'. There will be no mercy when the days comes that the war starts. If the PRC fails to win in such an event (it had 60 years to prepare for it), it is unworthy of Taiwan, and then let Taiwan be independent.
ReplyDeletePan Blue said he was pushed and DPP's Wang said he tripped. I watched the clip on BBC but the camera wasn't on his feet! I don't know... That's probably not the point now.
ReplyDelete'the official representative a nation that threatens to murder Taiwanese by the thousand in order to annex their nation arrives and he's only pushed to the ground? I'd say the response was quite restrained'
Well said Michael.
BTW, before this incident, Zhang and those who invited him all claimed that he's visiting as an academia in an unofficial capacity. Now all of sudden, he's an envoy??
I will be interested to hear how the October 25 rally goes. I know you will blog on it.
ReplyDeleteIf it is larger than the last one (let's hope so), then Beijing's worries over Chen Yunlin's visit will rise a notch.
I would also be interested to know what the security measures will be like during his visit. Protests can give a useful safety valve to the populace. If Chen is ferried around in a convoy and kept out of sight, the lid may be forced to sit on the pressure cooker for a while longer....
Oh, and by the way, I read this in the SCMP today. After reading it, I felt that the article was surprisingly neutral in tone. I searched for the name of the author, and instead of Lawrence Chung, I saw "Agencies in Taipei". LC must be on holiday. I hope he stays away longer.
ReplyDeleteI guess I feel a bit like I did aq DPP supporter smacked Lien Sheng-wen in Wanhua during the last legislative elections. It sure felt good, but I'm afraid it didn't help the cause. Every time a DPP supporter gets out of line, the pan-blue media blows it all out of proportion and the international media, which is inevitably absent from these incidents, follows along.
ReplyDeleteWhy not try mass civil disobedience? People can lie down in front of his car whenever he tries to go anywhere. Or chant slogans and hang signs. But is a rugby scrum necessary?
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ReplyDelete.
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"Push" or "Trip", it doesn't make a difference. He now has some insight about how most of Taiwan feel about being annexed by China. I hope they follow him everywhere he goes.
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Why not try mass civil disobedience? People can lie down in front of his car whenever he tries to go anywhere. Or chant slogans and hang signs. But is a rugby scrum necessary?
ReplyDeleteI think it might be. Which do you think is a greater deterrent to annexing Taiwan, having to think about non-violent protest (see Tibet) or having to consider that occupying troops will be met by violence? In a nation where all males have military training....
Michael
I don't think the Ma administration has been helping with the perception that they are unilaterally caving to Beijing on everything. Beijing can buy off as many people in the government as they want, but If enough people feel that the government isn't being responsive to their concerns, sooner or later they'll start taking things into their own hands.
ReplyDeleteAfter this all I can say is I really wish I could be back there for 10/25.
Regardless of whether he fell or was pushed, the fact remains that this isn't the same scuffle that foreign media has reported on. This isn't party politics, this is international politics and the fight for Taiwan to remain independent. Yes, it can be perceived as violent, but to get anywhere, sometimes people need to be forceful...Taiwan always has to sit idly by while China makes the demands. Well, now the world is going to start to see how Taiwan really feels.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it will hurt the image of Taiwanese people in the minds of people around the world...I'm not sure they have much of an image to begin with. Instead, this draws attention to the cause.
good for them.
there r 2 main problems regarding how foreign media, including the big ones like CNN and BBC, report the incident.
ReplyDelete1. They all describe the protestors to be "pro-independence". This gives uninformed readers the impression that Taiwan is currently under China's jurisdiction.
2. While all use the eye-catching title of "Taiwanese attack...", none actually mentioned the missiles.
I'm more worried about the two points above than whether Zhang was pushed or tripped.
The report I read from CNN and AP online is quite biased I think. I think it shows the western media's lack of understanding of Taiwan.
ReplyDeleteFor example, quote from CNN report: "Ma was elected in March after promising to turn the corner on the pro-independence policies of predecessor Chen Shui-bian and seek expanded trade and political relations with China,..." Combining this statement with the rest of the article make it sounds like Ma got elected because of his pro-China policy when in fact he got elected because of his economic promise such as "getting better immidiately", 633 and stock market index reaching 20,000, which are all proven to be false. Other reasons including carruption charges on Chen. But certainly turning toward China is not the major reason of him being elected. In fact, during election Ma downplay his Chinese policies quite a bit.
Unfortunately, these misconceptions and bias make those people that have enough courage to stand up and protest look like mere mobs when they might have done Taiwan a great service in showing dismay for all the threats, oppression, tainted milk from China and Chinese officials like Zhang.
Violence to an unarmed, elderly person should not and cannot be justified just because you disagree with (and distort) his political background. Never once did Zhang issue any political statement whatsoever in Tainan. He was there to see the Confucian temple. He also never threatened to kill any Taiwanese person -- that's an inference that you drew on your own, based on your own interpretation.
ReplyDeleteSo Zhang is the enemy? Why not strap a bomb to the chest and blow him up? When Chavez and Ahmadinejad were in New York, they were still treated with civility and respect, even when they did not, in my opinion, deserve any. That is what civilized men do in a civilized society. You don't have to agree with this person, but there is a time and a place for resolving these disagreements -- at least not when the guy is under your roof.
The mob that surrounded Zhang, chanting slogans and shoving him around, were nothing more than petty criminals. To see your effort in finding words to encourage such acts is, disappointing to say the very least. What the mob had done revealed what they are. Your words in justifying these acts, regrettably, revealed who you are. And I must say: it is not something that I can afford any respect to.
I can completely understand why people feel they need to be aggressive in such a protest.
ReplyDeleteTaiwanese anger and rage is a violent reaction against the PRC's constant use of implied violence against Taiwan.
The PRC envoy has no reason to get upset at anything. You point weapons at people and threaten them... they are not going to welcome you with flowers... unless they are KMT cadres.
Dude, behaviour like this helps no-one. Loud protest? Yes? but there's no point trying to stop him from talking to the local government. Whatever he decides with Ma will be decided either way.
ReplyDeletePushed or tripped aside, it has at least elicited some hilariously stupid comments on youtube. This is probably my favourite:
ReplyDelete我不是中國人也不是臺灣人
但覺得臺灣做得太過分了
本來想去臺灣觀光
但我現在覺得是一個沒有文化的國家
我是中國的話，我也不想承認臺灣是中國的~
That last line can only be encouraging to the protesters!
Sending a Chinese "official" to Southern Taiwan without security escort is just asking for trouble.
ReplyDeleteBut, it does make for good entertainment, just like those fights in the legislature.
As for whether he tripped or not, it's irrelevant. It's the appearance of lawlessness that makes the protestors look bad.
Now, will that dude who jumped on top of the car go to jail just like Chiu Yi(?), who knows?
Violence to an unarmed, elderly person should not and cannot be justified just because you disagree with (and distort) his political background. Never once did Zhang issue any political statement whatsoever in Tainan. He was there to see the Confucian temple. He also never threatened to kill any Taiwanese person -- that's an inference that you drew on your own, based on your own interpretation.
ReplyDeleteThreatening to kill Taiwanese to possess their island is official Chinese policy, which as an ARATS bigwig Zhang has made a formal commitment to.
very least. What the mob had done revealed what they are. Your words in justifying these acts, regrettably, revealed who you are. And I must say: it is not something that I can afford any respect to.
I'm sorry you don't respect my opinion that people who resist oppression should be supported. Perhaps it is true that the people who surrounded Zhang are petty criminals....but that makes the Chinese monsters. Just ask the Tibetans.
Really, your moralizing is ridiculous and the comparison with the visits of the leaders of Venezuela and Iran to the US moronic. Neither of the latter is a colonial power with a standing policy to murder thousands of Americans and invade and occupy their country.
When people threaten to kill you, what is the proper stance to take with them?
Michael
Violence to an unarmed, elderly person should not and cannot be justified
ReplyDeleteBTW, as my post points out, there was no violence done to Zhang. Hence your originally position is a distortion of the facts.
Michael
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ReplyDeleteSending a Chinese "official" to Southern Taiwan without security escort is just asking for trouble.
But, it does make for good entertainment, just like those fights in the legislature.
As for whether he tripped or not, it's irrelevant. It's the appearance of lawlessness that makes the protestors look bad.
>>>>>>>>>>
I'm afraid I must agree. The appearance of a mob-like throng surrounding a slight and elderly old man does not augur well for the Taiwanese, as it undermines their legitimacy. They should have calibrated their protest to fit the object of scorn.
In the early days of the Tangwai demonstrations, Taiwanese locked arms and marched in unison, presenting a disciplined and united front against a tyrannical regime. Seeing them harassing someon so short and aged seems much less heroic.
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Now, will that dude who jumped on top of the car go to jail just like Chiu Yi(?), who knows?
>>>>>>>>
Chiu Yi incited a riot (or tried to). That one individual demonstrated his anger in an aggressive manner. There's a difference.
Nonetheless, I think it would be just if he received some sanction, if even a token one.
Wow ok, this has gone way too overboard.
ReplyDeleteSo jumping on his car and multiple people shouting "給他死" (kill him) isn't at least slighhhhtly distrubing?
is there such a huge difference in being pushed or him tripping because he was being forced backward? so if I threaten someone backward until he fell off a 10 story building, that's not my fault because I didn't actually push him?
You argue that western media don't understand the situation, then you use the Tibet analogy, how's that for understanding the situation? your comparing a situation where the Tibetans are already occupied and surpressed with no military means avalible to them to a situation where Taiwan clearly has it's own governing body with it's own military but isn't recognized diplomatically.
I would definately support a anti-China rally . but there is a line in a democratic society. I can accept the violence being used say.. 20 years ago by when it was clearly a unfair situation . but the DPP just lost 3 strait election by a landslid after winning them the last time comming. how do they justify this "injust" society situation that you know, they were still head of just 6 months ago?
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ReplyDeleteViolence to an unarmed, elderly person should not and cannot be justified
BTW, as my post points out, there was no violence done to Zhang. Hence your originally position is a distortion of the facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Perhaps. But let's amend his statement to 'harassment and threat of violence to an unarmed, elderly person should not and cannot be justified'
I think it still carries some weight. Note: I am not concerned about the feelings of the Chinese, only for the civility of the Taiwanese.
So jumping on his car and multiple people shouting "給他死" (kill him) isn't at least slighhhhtly distrubing?
ReplyDeleteI think a large non-violent protest would have been more dramatic in its way, but that's not how protests are carried out here.
As I noted in my response to Feiren, there are other issues at stake here besides impressing westerners with how nonviolent and polite you can be, and that is impressing the Chinese with what uncontrollable violent bastards you can be. Surely that message was sent and heard.
Further -- and I'll probably elaborate on this in a blogpost -- nonviolent protest only works when (1) those protested against share a moral framework that acknowledges the moral impact of non-violence and (2) there is a strong prospect of violence by other factions should non-violence fail. Gandhi was successful because of the Sepoy Mutiny (the Raj had long memories) and because Bose created an army of tens of thousands of Indians allied to the Japanese who worked for violent overthrow of the British. MLK had a three centuries of violent black resistance to slavery and oppression at his back. Taiwanese resistance to KMT rule also played a role in the peaceful transition.
I deplore violence as much as anyone, but as Tibet shows emphatically, impressing westerners with your gentility is not the way to toss the Chinese out of your country. They don't subscribe to (1).
Michael
is there such a huge difference in being pushed or him tripping because he was being forced backward? so if I threaten someone backward until he fell off a 10 story building, that's not my fault because I didn't actually push him?
ReplyDeleteActually, to me the real issue was how quickly the media concocted and spread this false story and how rapidly the foreign media picked it up, yet no one questioned it. Me at fault as much as anyone: I need to be more reflexive in being skeptical about anything the Blue media says.
I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, Zhang did trip and fall after feeling threatened. On the other, his employer points missiles at my children and says he will kill them unless they accede to their demands. So I admit to ambivalence.
Michael
I don't think the foreign media and most foreign states are aware exactly how unacceptable unification is to the majority of Taiwanese. Unfortunately, since democratic decency was not respected by those who give it the most lip service, violence and protests in the street may work better at driving the point home.
ReplyDeleteWE DO NOT WANT TO BE CHINESE!!!!!
Good comments folks, keep 'em coming.
ReplyDeleteMichael
Does this TI supporter even know how to spell "independent"?
ReplyDelete場內有埋伏！ 張銘清演講被嗆聲
When Chavez and Ahmadinejad were in New York, they were still treated with civility and respect, even when they did not, in my opinion, deserve any.
ReplyDeleteThe Presidents of Venezuela and Iran visited in their official capacities as heads of state and were likely granted diplomatic immunity for that purpose. Diplomatic immunity is granted so that nations can talk rather than war, so the benefits outweigh the cost of allowing monsters to walk around unmolested.
Zhang did not visit as a diplomat and was not entitled to those protections. There is still an argument to be made that old men, no matter how evil their plans, should be unmolested, but that is different from comparing a private visit to a diplomatic visit.
If Zhang wants to enjoy the benefits of being treated as a diplomat when visiting a foreign land, he should be up front about his purpose. Perhaps his country should open an embassy in Taipei.
Without going into partisanship, events in Taiwan always keep me entertained. It was quite a show; hopefully Chen Yunlin will take note and ask for a different security arrangement in southern Taiwan.
ReplyDeleteViolent or not, angry people were clearly threatening Zhang and pressuring him further and further back. Such actions, plus mass cursing and stomping on the car, are sure to generate a storm of mixed reactions anywhere.
It's funny how they showed tour buses departing on the news. Were they DPP buses?
There was no violence done to Zhang?
ReplyDeleteZhang was pushed down by the forces of the mob – that’s battery. Throughout the duration of this incident, he was threatened and harassed with apparent menace to cause bodily harm – that’s assault. The mob that surrounded his vehicle and jumped on the roof of the car? Those acts constitute false imprisonment, criminal mischief, and assault (again).
Distorting the facts? The video clips clearly showed that Zhang was pushed. Even taken your argument as true that he was not “touched,” the threat or menace of bodily harm, which led to bodily harm, is still assault nonetheless. Not to mention, Zhang himself stated that he was pushed.
>>>Threatening to kill Taiwanese to possess their island is official Chinese policy, which as an ARATS bigwig Zhang has made a formal commitment to.
ReplyDeleteI guess I must’ve missed the memo. Could you please show me a copy of that policy?
>>>When people threaten to kill you, what is the proper stance to take with them?
Heavens! If, as you claimed, that China’s official policy is to kill the Taiwanese to possess the island, then, what are we waiting for?
Come to arms, brethrens! Why not take the enemy by surprise and attack before they could react? Let us send off the F-16s to bomb Fujian and Guangdong, and dispatch the Kidd class to attack Xiamen and Shanghai. There are still a few attack helicopters that could be used to sweep the fishing vessels (surely they can also be spy vessels) too. Taiwan has a formidable military, indeed. Let’s take the offensive and paralyze the PLA before they have time to respond. (After all, Bush’s doctrine of preemption is not bad an idea.) Why wait for the ballistic missiles to fall on Taiwan? Why not fire a few cruise missiles into the heart of Beijing or Guangzhou and paralyze their political and economic centers? This is the perfect opportunity to show your love for Taiwan: let us battle the PLA and fight a glorious revolution. Men should each report to the nearest HQ and grab a rifle. Better fire the first shot then being fired upon. For the children, women and elderly, there is still something they each could do: Hamas have shown that bombing could be a universal sport too, so strap a grenade under your shirts! We have not a moment to lose – there are 1.3 billion on the other side of the strait. Oh and, this is certainly something that the overseas Taiwanese could participate as well. After all, there are so many targets: embassies, companies, families, persons…
Let us immediately take arms and kill, imprison, or quarantine each and every person from the mainland or who has any roots or relations from the mainland. Start from all of the mainland brides married off to Taiwan. They are enemies or sympathizers of the enemy. The Americans interned the Japanese during WWII, why don’t we do the same? No time for trial: it’s high time for war! Wave goodbye to the 1+ million Taiwanese living in the many provinces of China – they are in enemy territory and should have seen this coming (they are probably enemy sympathizers anyway). Better yet, let’s imprison every single person here who does not recognize or support the Republic of Taiwan, for they will not likely lend support to the revolution. Arguably, this would result in the imprisonment of at least 7 million Taiwanese citizens (for voting for an anti-Taiwan administration) and their family members, but such is a small price to pay in the face of impending doom to be inflicted by the enemies. Marshall laws are designed for this purpose exactly.
Let us immediately stop trading any and all goods and merchandises from and with the mainland. We should not barter with the enemy. Let us immediately stop the import of any and all goods and merchandises that bears the mark “Made in China.” Perhaps we should organize a Kaohsiung Tea Party. An embargo shall be immediately imposed, and all exports or imports shall cease and desist, starting now. Granted, that this may result in the complete collapse of Taiwan’s TSEC Index, manufacturing, computer, and service industries, but survival is much important, no?
Yes, it is true that the above measures may be a little on the extreme side, but the price for not doing so is much higher: after all, we are being killed…right?
So, in response, Mr. Turton, let me ask you this:
What are you waiting for?
Didn’t you say that “they” are going to kill us?
Don't listen to Michael, he is an extreme left in the states. I dislike them as much as I dislike extreme right in the states.
ReplyDeleteSomeone here mentioned Ma has not delivered his promise on the economy. How many here want to bet with me on Taidex over 20,000 in three years :). If the US market doesn't take a dive by this Friday again, it is buy buy buy!
I don't think the foreign media and most foreign states are aware exactly how unacceptable unification is to the majority of Taiwanese
ReplyDeleteLocal reporters stationed here know it well. But they have to get their stuff through editors posted to Hong Kong, Beijing, and Singapore, and to China-friendly corporate news orgs.
Michael
Didn’t you say that “they” are going to kill us?
ReplyDeleteWow, can you not read English. I said when people THREATEN to kill you, what is the proper response?
I guess I must’ve missed the memo. Could you please show me a copy of that policy?
Sorry, really don't have time to go over last 50 years of Chinese threats to the island. Given your reading skills, doubt it would do much good, either.
Michael
Distorting the facts? The video clips clearly showed that Zhang was pushed. Even taken your argument as true that he was not “touched,” the threat or menace of bodily harm, which led to bodily harm, is still assault nonetheless. Not to mention, Zhang himself stated that he was pushed.
ReplyDeleteThe video clips do not show anything clearly; that is their biggest problem.
As for the rest of the "violence" you still have not confronted the issue of Chinese threats to Taiwan, so until you stop trolling, I don't see much point in responding to you.
Michael
It should also be noted that Ma's policy of cross strait political exchange is very irresponsible and premature for a variety of reasons. One major reason, beyond the degradation of Taiwan's sovereignty, is that this is a slap in the face to a large number of Taiwanese who do not wish to allow the advocates of the military threat against Taiwan to go around this island. Ma is completely out of touch with "Joe Bing-lang" and he has invited this type of aggression through his own careless actions along his naive view that everyone loves China just as much as he does. What did he think would happen?
ReplyDeleteThe hipocracy of the KMT never ceases to amaze me. Just two weeks ago they welcomed as the guest of honor at double 10 day, a man who violently attacked the former president of Taiwan. Then, they turn around and complain about the use of violence and 'uncivilized behavior'.
ReplyDeleteArty,
ReplyDeleteTaidex may or may not one day reach 20,000, and it might or might not reach it during Ma's term. But during election Ma's promise are more "immediate." Their statements are false advertisement that are way over optimistic. Even one of their economic official (think his last name is Chen) said 20,000 is just a "joke" recently when the reporters ask him about it.
Economic and market forces are not something you can fully predict or force your way through. That's why I dislike Ma's fast food, "ping" economy mentality, as if his government is a super hero, the savior that can "save" Taiwan's economy from Chen's "hell." Of course you can develop economy and create good economic conditions, but you can't "ping" it (like you can't make rice grow over night). And Taiwan has a free and open market system which means the government does not have 100% control over the economy. So I especially dislike those media that keeps blaming everything related to economy on Chen, and I am disgusted by Ma's fast food promises on economy. In the end, it is just...people's false fantasy created by greed and laziness on a national level. (well, obviously not every body, but quite a lot of people I think).
Yea, when the stock price is low, you can buy, but I think it's not good to be over optimistic like those that trusted Ma and bought huge amount of stock when the economy in the rest of the world are showing signs of financial troubles (during and after Taiwan's election).
Also, it's not just the index. Look at Ma promise of 633 and others, go back and listen or read what he said, then look at the economic condition and calculate carefully and you will discover that most of his promises during election are BS.
By the way, recently Ma just said "don't invest, buy stuff"...yea, that statement not only going against your idea, but I imagine it sounds very weird for those investors who trusted him during and after the election. I wonder if they laugh, or cry after they hear this. I think it's better not to trust Ma, that's the bottom line.
And Arty,
ReplyDeleteFrom the blog I read I actually think some of Michael's point of view is more on the right side...it doesn't sound extreme left to me.
But maybe we just can't over simplify and classify people's view only into left and right? I don't know.
And I think Michael has a lot of good points. And unlike a lot of westerners he actually has some understanding of Taiwan's matter. Agree or disagree, it's interesting to read a pro Taiwan foreigner's view on Taiwan's matters.
My concern is that if there is another confrontation like this something properly physical will happen to the visiting official and/or another party and that the authorities will use it as an excuse to arrest all the protestors and move them away to allow an uninterrupted "event".
ReplyDeleteTaiwan is not at war. There is no need to go jumping on people's cars, for example. Follow them, yes. Chant slogs, yes. But don't give anyone the opportunity to lie about what happened. If the media is biased, don't give them the excuse to paint you in a bad light.
The critic about this "brutal assault" and the harm of Taiwans democracy would be more credible if it wouldnt come from the same people who gleed over Chen Shuibian being kicked in the butt and the witchhunt that followed it.
ReplyDeleteWell, its just another ugly farce in the Taiwanese media and politics I guess.
raj, Taiwan is at war. Technically, the war has never ceased. In a sense, this justifies the actions against the Chinese official. You do not welcome enemies to your house. You chase them away! He should be happy he only got some bruises.
ReplyDeleteThe police should have been at the scene to maintain order. The media was there in force, the police should have known something may happen.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the non-violent commentators here. This man did not deserve the pushing and shoving assault he received. It is the same disgusting treatment that the Chinese gave French people in China after the Olympic torch non-sense.
Perhaps a smarter way to confront the PRC authorities that come here in the future is for everyone to dress up with paper-mache missile launcher strapped to their bodies then set off annoyingly loud firecrackers at every opportunity (to sound like a missile strike).
OK, its not a greatest idea, maybe someone can contribute a better suggestion. Note, I think burning a PRC flag would do more harm than good.
Lastly, that old guy is going to have a hell of a bill for destruction of private property. He destroyed that Benz roof which I guess will be at least NT$200K to fix.
Not that it's comparable and I don't support violence, but if this was an Israeli official visiting Palestinian Ramallah, he probably wouldn't last 5 seconds, and I'm not talking about standing up.
ReplyDeleteEven though China is more strict on security and protest, I wonder how a DPP pro-independence official would be welcomed in Beijing.
Anyways, I think having him visit Tainan was insensitive to how most of DPP land Tainan folks feel towards such a visit.
Regardless, what I really don't get is where the security and police were in all this.
reeb,
ReplyDeletethat old Chinese guy is not just another old Chinese guy. He is not all innocent. The treatment he recieved is debatable, but we have to remember that he is/was Chinese officials who said a lot of things against Taiwan, and probably direct a lot of propaganda operations to surpress Taiwan's international relationship, and trying to influence Taiwan's business people and politicians.
And I am pretty sure no body want to see this old Chinese guy, who has been unfriendly to Taiwan for so long, get treated like a guest of honor when he is in Taiwan. Dressing up in Holloween customs to protest is a possible idea but first of all he probably won't even care and second the protesters didn't know before hand where he is so the operation would be very difficult. Thirdly, if you dress in missiles, can someone looking at you actually tell if you are supporting or aginst China's missiles? You have to yell out your opinions otherwise others can't hear you.
In this case a in your face protest is more effective I think. But yea, I am not sure if the falling down or jumping on the car thing are good or bad.
And why the heck did some body invited this old guy here to give speach in a school in the first place? Did he contribute to humanity or was he here to teach Tainan people how to use the Froce? |o|
I think it's easy for the KMT-controlled media to stage these events and then point to the DPP as the perps.
ReplyDeleteBut, this was Tainan, so why hasn't anyone suggested that these protesters were actually fervent anti-communist, nationalist KMT crusaders?
I seem to recall that when the first Chinese tourists appeared in Nantou a couple of months ago there was more civil war incivility than an independence-minded backlash.
Let's not forget that Ma has reclaimed all of China for the ROC. Wouldn't this stir up the repressed and violent forces which include the group that kicked CSB in the heinie a few months ago?
BBC's video is pretty clear:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7681711.stm
dixteel,
ReplyDeleteI know who he is and what he represents.
What I am saying is that the Taiwanese have to develop a smarter way to confront the unificationists, both homegrown (KMT) and foreigners(CCP). Physical assault is a crime and not the answer at this point.
Michael,
ReplyDeleteMany "updates" in this article. It will help if they are labeled like "update.1", "update.2" ... so readers know which update updates other updates. :)
As a native Taiwanese overseas watching the DPP's reaction to this incident is depressing beyond words. For the sake of Taiwan's future we absolutely need a strong opposition party to challenge the KMT, but the DPP's actions do not inspire much confidence. The way the party officials are spinning this incident, blaming the Ma government and even Zheng himself is just deplorable. Wang's claim that Zheng deserved this beatdown because he "lied" about cancelling public appearances is utter BS. Considering that this is his first (and most likely last) time to Taiwan it's understandable that he would want to visit some tourist attractions, such as the Confucious Temple. As far as I'm concerned Zheng did stay true to his word, he cancelled any further presentations he was to give and he just wanted to do some sight-seeing, like any tourist would. Seriously, does Wang expect him to stay holed up in his hotel room for four more days??? Is he under house arrest or something? Wang is an idiot, so I can live with that but to see so many of his fellow DPP collegues support his action is disheartening. If anything it shows that the direction of the DPP is leaning toward the more extremist elements in the party. Haven't these fools learned anything yet? This strategy cost them big in the legislative and presidential election and it will led to the party's demise. MT you can you justify Wang's behavior anyway you want but the fact is opinion polls show that 75% of Taiwanese do not approval of Wang's action and find it to be disgraceful. Only about 18% got a real kick out of it. Let me ask you this, is it a viable strategy for the DPP to only appeal to this narrow 18% minority?
ReplyDeleteFrom the Chinese point of view, I think the threat of violence directed at Chen Yunlin is the best news possible. If Chen Yunlin is attacked, injured, or even killed... I see plenty of justification for the PLA to start a punitive attack on Taiwan tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteAnd what's the rest of the world going to do? They're going to keep their mouths shut and desperately try to hoard their last few dollars in a desperate attempt to prop up their faltering financial houses.
This could all end very well for the Chinese nation.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteI hope you do put up a post about conditions and limits regarding strategic non-violence, because what you briefly mentioned was enlightening for me.
About Tibet, and in full keeping with your points, I remember seeing a Tibetan academic -- working in India -- on a TV show three or four years ago. He said he was not optimistic about Tibet's future; he said that when a society built on trust tangles with a more powerful society built on lack of trust, the result will be tragedy.
MT you can you justify Wang's behavior anyway you want but the fact is opinion polls show that 75% of Taiwanese do not approval of Wang's action and find it to be disgraceful. Only about 18% got a real kick out of it. Let me ask you this, is it a viable strategy for the DPP to only appeal to this narrow 18% minority?
ReplyDeleteWhat is it that Taiwanese think happened?
Also, it wasn't "the DPP" but some idiot in southern Taiwan that did this, and he wasn't engaged in a "strategy." Let's not blow this up into something it's not.
Michael
"DPP collegues support his action is disheartening. If anything it shows that the direction of the DPP is leaning toward the more extremist elements in the party."
ReplyDeleteGenerally it's bad to go to the extreme but don't you think Ma and KMT also gone to the extreme pro-China and pro-unification stance in the recent months? When Ma's gov invited the guy that kick ex-President Chen from behind to national day ceremony, don't you think there are extreme elements in KMT as well? It's an action reaction situation. You cannot expect people to stay all calm in this situation.
Michael,
ReplyDeleteThis is violence. This is harrassment of an unarmed, elderly person. What is your definition of violence? Actual contact and loss of blood? The PRC should not threaten violence against the Taiwanese people. The Taiwanese should be enraged. However, being angry about the PRC does not justify violence done to any envoy from any nation. There are so many strong forms of protest practiced around the world for various causes. This here is just violence. And some Taiwanese condone and encourage this type of violence. It's shocking! I had sympathy for those Taiwanese who do not want to live under the PRC rule, now I'm just...disgusted.
James W Taylor
James, this is not "violence." Shouting, pushing, and shoving are common behavior at political protests in Taiwan. Quit using your ethnocentric definitions of what "violence" is and try to understand the event in its context. Nothing that happened is unusual for Taiwan.
ReplyDeleteThis is not an "elderly person." This is a well-dressed and articulate gangster who has threatened the lives of Taiwanese on several occasions, as the Taipei Times documented today. Now, I would not have pushed him myself. But I understand why the people whose lives he threatened might react the way they did.
I don't need to condone this to understand why it happened and why it might be useful. And what it might represent.
It's nice to imagine that everything is going to be genteel by western standards. But look how well that approach has worked for Tibetans.
Michael
I would also like to note that for Zhang this was an opportunity to experience and appreciate Taiwan's society, which he knew for its order, civility and democratic process that most of mainland China has yet to catch up to.
ReplyDeleteAssuming a journey of honest intentions, he must have been disappointed. I must say his travel and security arrangements were lacking in intelligent planning.
I disagree with calling Zhang superficial names like "gangster" and denial of any physical violence at the event:
1. Inferences can be made about his intent, but there is insufficient evidence to define "gangster" as anything beyond name-calling for Zhang as a former spokesperson.
2. Shouting, cursing, pushing and shoving are generally prohibited in public and considered threatening behavior in most stable societies. Taiwan is no exception, although the government shows unusual leniency at political events. Therefore, this definition is not ethnocentric, or else police would not show up at bar fights.
Channing, shouting cursing and shoving are normal in protests here. No one is going to do "nonviolent" protests.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that really, nothing happened. A man fell down backing away from a mob consisting of people he had threatened to kill if they did not obey him, and another man climbed on a car. Woo-hoo! Worse stuff happens at football games...
Quit blowing this shit up. The only reason anyone is paying attention is because it is a PRC official.
Michael
Seriously, does Wang expect him to stay holed up in his hotel room for four more days??? Is he under house arrest or something?
ReplyDeleteWhat do Taiwanese national presidents get to do when visiting foreign countries like the U.S. and Japan? If they're lucky enough to get a stopover, they are pretty strictly controlled due to China's interference in places like the U.S. and Japan. Why should a Chinese envoy be treated any better?
Come on guys. I'm also pro-acknowledgement of the Taiwanese state. But he has been a pushed. Maybe there was something on the ground that he tripped over as well. But still: he has been pushed. And that's ok, I can understand it, although I'd prefer if they could keep calm.
ReplyDeleteSven
This all reminds me of my favorite scene from the movie Unforgiven:
ReplyDeleteLittle Bill Daggett: Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!
Will Munny(Clint): Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend.
Zhang is no innocent, elderly guest and should have damn well know better. To casually stroll around the home turf of the man he publically vilified many times over, shows either extreme stupididy or arrogance. Bit of both I'd guess.
"Does this TI supporter even know how to spell "independent"? "
ReplyDeleteThe misspelling was due to the student asking an old man to use ink and brush to write it for him. The old man, not knowing English, misspelled it. That's all it was.
What's disturbing is how this is just another in a line of thought where Taiwan waisheng and the Blues always think of themselves as intellectually and culturally superior. The supporters of DPP are always described alternatively as uneducated, violent, crass, and naive and simple.
What's funny is when you look at the Western-educated Taiwanese, you see them majority pro-DPP, and the same holds with the super-monied (those that sort of float between Japan, the US, Taiwan and are fluent in what seems like 5 or more different languages).
I guess it's the same as with the Republicans in the US. The rich are Republican. The super-rich are all Democrats.
(Not justifying that with money comes reasonable political positions, but this is pan-Blue logic that contradicts itself when you look at the truly top levels of education and wealth).
"How many here want to bet with me on Taidex over 20,000 in three years :). If the US market doesn't take a dive by this Friday again, it is buy buy buy!"
ReplyDeleteArty, if you will reply to this comment with a way to contact you, I will very gladly take the other side of this bet. I would be willing to bet $10,000 USD. I could consider a larger sum if that is enough for you. We need some kind of third-party to handle the transaction, of course, but I'm willing.
You in? I hope you were serious because I am.
"...this is pan-Blue logic that contradicts itself when you look at the truly top levels of education and wealth)."
ReplyDeleteYes, Anon. And it's so much fun to point out and stress this -- to see the jaws of Han traditionalists drop when you paoint out that accepting and succeeding on the terms of traditional Chinese education and values makes people sociologically blind -- makes them illogical and stupid in their perception of reality -- and that the average TI sweet-potato farmer, being non-myopic, is therefore actually far smarter than many high-degree-holding Han traditionalists.
Traditional Chinese education (or whatever was left of it) was obliterated in the Qing and Communist eras.
ReplyDeleteYoung Western-educated Taiwanese DPP supporters are generally a homesick bunch who don't really understand history and only have a desire to exaggerate anything related to Taiwan. Such is the protester who interrupted Zhang. In his TV interview, he makes no valid points to defend his protest:
1. Taiwan is an independent country: Sure, it's a nation named ROC that few others are willing to recognize.
2. Taiwan has its own government: This is common knowledge, does he think Zhang does not know this, or denies this? The idea that this is truth vs. lies in today's world is quite naive.
One commenter brought up a hilarious point...that Zhang mentioned filing charges in Taiwan. Technical foul!
Channing, I'll clarify in reply what I meant about Chinese education being (fundamentally) still traditional and thus rendering people less rather than more intelligent and aware. Busy right now, though, so please check back in a day or two, eh?
ReplyDeleteIt is amazing that there are so many people here who deliberately shut their eyes and ears to facts around them.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they only want to see and hear things they want to see and hear. This is indeed very sad.
Please face the reality. Is Taiwan a truly independent country? Is it recognized as an independent country by the rest of the world?
Life is not a one-way traffic. It does not mean that if you think you are Tom Cruise, you really are.
Having said this, I think the status quo benefits everybody in the world - which means less trouble. The world has enough trouble already. Please do not add to it.
Democracy and Freedom are our rights.
But if we abuse them, they become demo-crazy and free doom.
If we want to resort to violent protests to solve problems, I suggest you build a big army of gangsters and use them to solve problems. This will make Taiwan a great place.
Yet another anonymous commenter wrote:
ReplyDelete- - -
Please face the reality. Is Taiwan a truly independent country? Is it recognized as an independent country by the rest of the world?
- - -
Yo, anonymous, please face the real reality. Does the PRC rule Taiwan? (No.) Has the PRC ever ruled Taiwan? (No.) Was the United States recognized by the rest of the world immediately after declaring independence? (No.) Does that mean that it wasn't independent from England? (No.) (Does this mean I support what happened to the original inhabitants? [No way.])
Look who's talking about people who "deliberately shut their eyes and ears to facts around them." Ironic, ain't it?
And no "arm[ies] of gangsters," thank you.
Next.
Tim Maddog