A reader alerted me to this minor flap over the "UN for Taiwan" slogan. Apparently a blogger at Wandering in Wulai argued that the phrase UN for Taiwan was bad English. The blogger had also complained that the Post Office was stamping UN for Taiwan on the outgoing mail.補習班外籍老師陶維極向本報投訴，抗議郵局侵犯他的言論自由，擅自在他寄到美國給未婚妻的信件上蓋上「UN for TAIWAN」的入聯標語，他怒指這是獨裁作法，政府不能利用私人郵件當作執政黨宣傳品。
As far as his complaint is concerned, the government's use of private outgoing mail to spread its political slogans is unconscionable and should cease immediately. What if Ma Ying-jeou wins and the Post Office starts having "Mongolia is part of the ROC!" or "Chen Shui-bian causes global warming!" stamped on every outgoing piece of mail? Stupid to set a precedent like this -- isn't it one of Taiwan's biggest problems that both sides have thoroughly politicized the government?
Talovich also complained that the English of "UN for Taiwan" was bad:
他指出，「唯一可以安慰的是，這句不成文的英文，外國人一定看不懂。UN for TAIWAN應該是聯合國送給台灣的意思，但新聞局長還說這句英文沒問題，實在看不懂，這不是英文。」
"...it's not grammatical. Foreigners just won't get it. 'UN for Taiwan' means giving the UN to Taiwan...."
Talovich posted on his blog an update:
本blog上禮拜四(十月十一日)提出，UN for Taiwan不成英文。結果，立委因而質問新聞局長，新聞局長堅持UN for Taiwan沒錯。
很好，很好，他是大官，他認為對就好了。外國人看不懂就是了。
Last Thursday this blog observed that UN for Taiwan isn't good English. As a result, a legislator asked the GIO head about it, and the GIO said there was no problem.
Ok, ok, he's the boss, so if he thinks it's ok, it must be ok. If foreigners don't understand, that's OK too.
Talovich's complaint about the abuse of private emails was spot on, but his understanding of English is a bit deficient. Phrases such as "A for B" are not uncommon. When a traveler says "It's California for me!" no one understands him to be saying that the State of California is to be given to him. Similarly, if the speaker says "It's Harvard for me," all listeners understand that he will attend that university, not that he is being given that university. Again, if a group of individuals is being asked what their political preferences are, it is perfectly acceptable to answer "Democratic party for me." Only a complete fool would imagine that the speaker was demanding the Democratic party be handed over to him. "UN for Taiwan" likewise expresses a powerful wish in a shortened form: "The UN should be for Taiwan, too!" or something similar. It's a shame that Talovich gave such an erroneous interpretation for the bottom feeders at UDN to feast on.
But let's go further: in advertising and in oral language, skewed language is often a signal of memorable language. "Have you Met Life today," the slogan of Met Life, makes its point by drawing on the ambiguity in the reader's perception of "Met Life" as an erroneous verb (as a neologism it should have an -ed on the end), instead of just "met" as the verb, with "life" as its object. I doubt anyone has written the large food company that uses "Beanz Meanz Heinz" to kvetch that the first two "Zs" are wrong. Think Pringles has a legion of Tovarich-s complaining that "Once you pop, the fun don't stop" is grammatically unacceptable? In fact the relatively unusual construction of UN for Taiwan may well command the attention of those who come across it, just as "Leggo my Eggo!" is probably still memorable to many Americans in my generation.
If the reader wishes to argue that UN for Taiwan is a poor slogan regardless of its grammatical status -- and I know some of you will -- please place a better three-word slogan in the comments below. Pay close attention to the meter; whatever you may say about the grammar, the meter of UN for Taiwan is excellent -- the syllables are nicely stressed so that the phrase rolls right off the tongue.
UPDATE: Lots of good comments below.
[Taiwan]
Indeed, of all the bad English that presents itself, via through the government or otherwise, the slogan "UN for Taiwan" would do any native english sloganeer proud.
ReplyDeleteToo bad most Taiwanese, let alone the rest of the world gives a hoot.
Uh, just tell me please, just HOW did this KMT legislator HEAR about Mr. T's blog in English? Did Mr T. somehow send out a press release about all this? What is the connection between that KMT pol and Mr. T and how did all this happen? I smell a KMT skunk; maybe Mr T can answer here?
ReplyDeleteAnd this: There is something very strange about this story, which made all the TV shows last night and today, and all the Mandarin newspapers, but none of the English papers -- tomorrow? -- and that is this: This guy Mr Talovich who lives in Wulai according to his excellent blog, seems to be a KMT supporter, why else would he go public with all this nonsense about THE and the UN? Privacy, yes, he brings up a good issue, but hearing him on TVBS talk about the slogan being incorrect, ouch, he is a writer, a very good writer it seems reading his blog, but he objects in a silly way to creative advertising slogans and tag lines? What does this man smoke in Wulai? He says he chants sutras, that's cool, and he says he does not have a TV, that's cool, but what is his objection to Taiwan joining the UN? His fiancee was really so put off by receiving that piece of mail? Silly boy he is. Laughing stock of the weiguolen again. Who's next?
But he is an excellent writer and thinker:
"At the end of a busy, fulfilling day, I sometimes wonder how anybody
ever finds time to read a newspaper. There is so much to do! Aside
from yard work and chores, I have a pile of slabs of wood that I have
promised to carve for friends, tea to drink, tea pots to polish,
clouds to watch, a bookcase to repair, mantras to tell, frogs to
listen to, calligraphy to practice, recorders to play, dogs to play
with, letters to write, saplings to plant, crickets to see, books to
read and reread, paths to follow, sutras to chant, birds to admire,
and in some distant year which I hope may never arrive, I should clean
out the basement.People ask me, Don't you get bored up there in Wulai in the mountains? Are you kidding? I can barely find time to go out and earn money! I realized
that I am never bored because I do not have a television."
There's more: that letter in question is to someone named Joseph in Somerville, Massachusetts, near Tufts University, the zip code is 02155. But Mr T told the Apple Diary, er Daily, that he sent that letter to his fiance in Boston? Dude?
ReplyDeleteAlso, why does he post the UN for Taiwan stuff on his blog in Chinese only, and not in English. I suspect he might be a KMT plant or a CIA spy. Watch this man become famous in Taiwan for 15 minutes and disappear from view next year when he moves back ''home''!
The smoking gun: Mr T says this on his blog. So he hates the DPP and Mr Bean as he calls Chen Shui-bian. Read:
ReplyDelete"But this is indicative of the Bean Regime. In almost eight years as president, he has done nothing concrete or constructive. He has apparently devoted all his energies to setting new records for corruption, and a new record for the world’s lowest popularity rating of any elected president since public opinion polls were first invented. Other than that, he has done nothing. Since he is incapable of doing anything else, all he has done is changed some names. He changed the name of the airport, the post office, and a few other agencies.....Too bad he doesn't do anything for Taiwan."
Nuff said? Oops, he will get me for that grammer mystake!
LOL. I knew if I posted this the Loyal Readers would be right there for me!
ReplyDeleteMichael
Greg Talovich. sometimes written as G.B. Talovich. Seems to love living in Wulai, loves Aborigines, love sutras, hates DPP. Connect the dots. He is KMT plant. CIA poseur. Bushiban freeloader. He should come clean here and state his views. Greg?
ReplyDeleteOne question for Mr Talovich: if the stamp on the letter from the ROC said SAVE THE PANDAS or ABOLISH DOMESTIC VIOLENCE or PROTECT ENDANGERED SPECIES IN WULAI FOREST, would he be so IN-censed?
ReplyDeleteevery English example sited is "[someplace] for me." that make sense because it becomes personalized. but for example "California for Tuvalu" doesn't make any sense, or more correctly, is possible to misunderstand. when i first read "UN for Taiwan" i thought that phrase was issued by the UN. IMO, it should read "Taiwan for UN" because that is clear, concise and is nearly impossible to misunderstand. i'm no scholar but "UN for Taiwan" sounds stupid because it's either a wrong assumption, or worse, a plea.
ReplyDeleteHere's my entry for alternative slogan:
ReplyDelete"UN Touch Your Taiwan"
For the benefit of those who think the slogan is wrong (awkward, perhaps, but not really wrong): This is an example of synecdoche; in this case UN is the whole of something representing a part of it, in this case "UN membership."
ReplyDeleteHere's another example, from a recent headline:
"Uzbekistan Demolishes Taiwan"
Good point Michael. But of course, the Talovich-s of the world will say that Taiwan for UN! is a cheer.
ReplyDeleteI kinda like UN for Taiwan -- it's got a nice rhythm to it, and it's unusual construction makes it memorable.
Besides -- pick a geographical name and type "It's ___ for" in Google. I got "It's Berlin for the Italians" on my first try. This is not an uncommon formulation.
Michael
Right, I wondered about the wording also, but then it occurred to me that it's actually alright as is...Although a bit strange, "UN for Taiwan" would be correct if the meaning were a) the "UN should support/be for Taiwan" or b) "Taiwan is headed for the UN". Examples: "Greens for Nader!" and "Victory for Nader!"
ReplyDeleteBetter would've been "Taiwan --> UN" (Where can I pick up my prize?)
I can tolerate "UN for Taiwan" as a slogan--but what's with the "Peace forever" after it? (Now please don't think that I'm advocating war forever.)
ReplyDeleteI am sure Mr T must a nice chap, his blog is certainly well done and well crafted, and he sounds like a decent bloke, but today he adds a new note to his blog, kind of arrogance du jour: to wit: "新聞局長認為，UN for Taiwan還是對的, so I must be wrong ~~ ho ho ho!"
ReplyDeleteA little more humility Greg, a little more humble pie. The privacy issue is right on, the grammer parte is a bit iffy. This is Taiwan, where English is a second or third language, so you should get off your high horse, ho ho ho, and come down to Earth, where the rest of us are......well, some of us. Annette Lu! Calling Annette Lu!
btw, i just went do to the post office this afternoon, 5 pm, in Taoyuan to ask for a UN for Taiwan stamp on a letter I am sending to Los Angeles, but I didn't send it yet, I just asked the clerk if he could stamp if for me, i showed him the air mail envelope with the stamps already on it and the address, but said I had to fix the address and he took it over the transom, stamped it in blue ink with the UN for Taiwan stamp and gave it back to me. You can try this too, it will be a collector's item.
ReplyDeleteRIT, Radio International Taiwan, is reporting online now:
ReplyDelete[Premier urges UN bid logo stamped on mail]
*staff writer
''The premier of Taiwan is promoting a policy to stamp "UN for Taiwan" logo on mail to let the world know that Taiwan has no access to international organizations. This month, Taiwan Post Company has been stamping the logo on domestic and international mail at random each day.
However, the opposition Kuomintang criticizes the government for using people's taxes to do things for the ruling party.
The Premier said on Tuesday that the public supports Taiwan joining the UN, and the world needs to know Taiwan's need to join international organizations.''
I still find the slogan sloppy, and think existential+ copula constructions (as in "There is such a thing as non-alcoholic beer" and "It's Italy for me") are somehow different than the "UN for Taiwan" sentence construction. However, I find "UN for Taiwan" too ambiguous to expand to a full sentence, so it's hard to actually prove this point.
ReplyDeleteI think this, like the full page letter/ad taken out in the US newspapers, shoes a tendency to use Taiwanese logic or writing/marketing habits and export them -- instead of really marketing to the intended audience effectively.
I also don't find it to be in the least memorable except for being confusing.
Like you, I'm horrified that the post office would do something like this and don't see what business all branches of government have in promoting every government policy. Way too politicized.
Well, that guy is an environmentalist but god knows how he built his house within that Tayal Reserve area. I wonder if he has gotten any legal permission to even erect a house in that area.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit finding the construction odd, sort of like the Mr. Brown coffee ad with the slogan "always be there." It isn't that its wrong, but its just does not sound like a slogan that a native speaker would have come up with.
ReplyDeleteMichael's examples are all different enough from the actual slogan that he makes this point for me:
The slogan isn't "Its the UN for Taiwan" (which would sound British to me, not American), or but "UN for Taiwan."
I'm not complaining, just saying that it was noticeable.
I can easily imagine the meeting where they came up with the slogan, I'm sure it was picked because it was the least offensive of all the alternatives:
Taiwan in the UN
Taiwan at the UN
UN: Let Taiwan in!
UN Taiwan
etc.
I can't think of a nice short alternative to "UN for Taiwan" and so while I'm not crazy about it, I challenge people to come up with something better! (Although marc anthony's suggestion is pretty damn good...)
"frogs to listen to, calligraphy to practice, recorders to play, dogs to play with"
ReplyDeleteHow about sentences to not end in prepositions..... Um.... yeah
Tinky Winky(丁丁) for Talovich
ReplyDelete丁丁需要陶維極
I found a "UN for Taiwan" mention in my water bill today which I thought was pretty cool. However signs like these and those around town seem targeted at local Taiwanese, who probably don't need convincing that Taiwan needs a place in the UN. It's the average Joe overseas who doesn't know about Taiwan's exclusion that this cause needs to be promoted to. So I like the ideas of having this on international stamps.
ReplyDeleteI have to pipe in on this one because it's a marketing issue, plain and simple.
ReplyDelete"Let Taiwan in the UN" or "Let Taiwan into the UN", is the best phrase, IMHO, that would allow the message to be understood by ANY mail recipient.
If they really wanted to get their message across they'd also eliminate the Chinese on the stamp.
Also, they should give away the Taiwan flags that line the side of the road to foreign students once they head back to their home country.
They should then sell the surplus flags at the airport for 50NT to any passenger that wants one.
Will someone PLEASE let me drive the propaganda train? I really don't care where we're going, I just wanna honk the horn.
At first glance, 'UN for Taiwan' seems a bit awkward to me..but what about the 'Peace Forever' part? I think the 'Peace Forever' makes it all come together quite nice. I guess they left that off of Talovich's mail.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I wouldn't really care if it was stamped on my mail, but as a baseball fan I hate the fact that they put two fingers and a thumb around the logo in a blatant exploitation of Taiwan's recent Yankee craze. I mean, they show Wang Chien-Ming's signature 'split finger' around the logo, which is ironic; the split finger fastball, just like this whole UN garbage, is intended to deceive the batter into believing he's getting a real fastball...then it drops into the dirt.
I don't have anything against "UN for Taiwan." I sounds a little like some of the political websites in the US, like Dean for America, which became Democracy for America. I also liked your discussion here.
ReplyDeleteI think my favorite ad lines of all time is the Mounds/Almond Joy one: "Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't." There are at least two ways of interpreting that: "Sometimes you feel like having a nut" and "Sometimes you feel like you are a nut." And it has a third interpretation depending on whether you take "nut" literally as a real nut or figuratively as a nut-case. I guess its that koan-like kind of phrase that just sticks in your head. Adding some humor to it can also work.
I also always liked the "Touch your heart" phrase, though I know there are people who don't like it. To me, it stays with you more than a more grammatical sentence like: "Taiwan will touch your heart." Though, I guess it is grammatical, but without the Taiwan part, would sound more like an imperative: "Touch your heart, now!" Well, on that not, I think I will go to sleep.
I was watching the news, I think it was the channel 52, and Mr T. was on the news talking about his mail, the phrase "UN for Taiwan" and that during Chiang Kai-shek era everything was different... seems that Mr. T came here 30 ago!
ReplyDeleteI found the whole privacy issue to be a bit of a red herring. First, Taiwan Post is a Government agency and so I don’t find it strange that it adheres to Government policy. Second, the purpose of post mark on the letter is to cancel the postage stamps; the Government can use whatever stamp it pleases. The argument that the letter is private property is beside the point. You are using a government service (a subsidized one at that) and you are not obligated to use it if you do not like the government. There is FedEx, UPS, and DHL. Third and perhaps most relevant, the use of post mark for propaganda is routine and universally accepted. It is only a problem in Taiwan when the opposition party has nothing better to do than create fake news.
ReplyDeleteI wish the CCP would do the same: with a stamp on every outgoing mail from China saying:
ReplyDelete-UN not for TW
-China is in UN and u arent, haha
-UN for simplified Chinese
That would be great fun.
What a big bs about nothing...
nobody gives a shit to a stamp. When was the last time u read any stamp? Its a stamp, not a marriage contract.
"UN for Taiwan" didn't stick with me well at first. But I will have it, since it makes more sense than "Taiwan Touch Your Heart." Hearing the latter always have me break out laughing, for it reminds me of something I often repeat to my little boy, "tuck in your shirt," "wash your hands," etc. You get the picture.
ReplyDeleteHow about "Improve UN - Admit Taiwan." 8 syllables.
Clancy, smallo mistake in your postm above: " Second, the purpose of post mark on the letter is to cancel the postage stamps; the Government can use whatever stamp it pleases."
ReplyDeleteBut this UN for Taiwan stamp is not used to cancel the stamps, there is a normal postmark with date stamped over stamps, and the UN stamp is just a decorative stamp, over pure paper, not over the stamps themselves. Just to clarify. Go look.
''THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS ONCE''
Taoyuan City Square
what no newspaper has yet discussed is HOW Mr T's blog post found its way to a KMT pol who then made a big fuss by sending out press releases , faxed, to all the TV stations on Sunday night????????? Yes, that is how the news became big news. So how did it happen?
ReplyDeleteMr T lives in a very well appointed wooden floor, Japanese walled house that must have cost a fortune, pours tea like a king or a lord on Tv, has been here for 30 years, speaks fluent Chinese, and is a really good egg. But on this one, he went overboard. What does TINKY WINKY mean, above?
Oops, 陶維極 blew his cover....
ReplyDeleteI think the whole issue has nothing to do with someone's privacy. The post office just stamped a "slogan postmark" on someone's mail, that's all!
ReplyDeletePlz go to ebay and type "slogan postmark," you will find tons of mails with different postmarks on them.
"there is a normal postmark with date stamped over stamps, and the UN stamp is just a decorative stamp, over pure paper, not over the stamps themselves. Just to clarify. Go look."
ReplyDeleteAnd who cares? How does the fact that it was stamped on the mail differ from any government anywhere in the world printing a standard-edition stick-on stamp with any subject matter? A simple example: The US regularly makes standard stamps with the US flag on it. Now imagine I was a nasty jihad-focused individual who sought the downfall of the "imperialist" US. I might disagree with putting a US flag on my mail, but the flag would be beyond my control unless I wanted to buy a pricy special-edition stamp because the US government chose the subject matter.
My point is that it is not out of the ordinary for a government to print a subject on a stamp that it finds important, and it is not a waste of taxpayers' money. This is only pseudo-news because the pan blues object to using the name Taiwan to join the UN. And it is dumb pseudo-news too, since almost everyone in Taiwan agrees that the "island of Taiwan" should enter the UN under some name. So UN for Taiwan should be acceptable for everyone located on that island. The Taiwan on the stamp is not necessarily an indicator of the name the island will use to apply.
I posted an email response to Mr. Talovich regarding the postmark incident. the following is most of what i wrote.
ReplyDeleteMr. Talovich,
How do you do. As you probably have already guessed, I am writing you regarding recent news articles I have come across that has to do with your apparent discontent at the "UN for Taiwan" postmarks applied on the envelopes you have mailed out.
http://tw.news.yahoo.com/article/url/d/a/071015/2/mfc3.html
http://tw.news.yahoo.com/article/url/d/a/071016/17/mge3.html
Although I do agree that freedom of speech and the fundamental civil rights of individuals living in a democracy should be greatly valued, I must let you know that your assertion that "it is not possible to happen in the US" is erroneous and your analogy of "Bush would never instruct the USPS to put 'Go Bush!' as postmarks on the envelopes" is seriously flawed. Further more, your critique on the grammatical structure of the marketing slogan "UN for Taiwan" may have its merit from certain POV, but it serves no constructive purpose or adds no value whatsoever.
Let's begin with the part you said it would not happen in US... the fact is, it has happened. If you would take a look at the images I have attached you can see that US government used postmarks to promote the savings bonds to finance the war efforts in the 1940's. I don't know about you, but that sounds very much like a political message to me.
http://www.geocities.com/mafia_godfather/00a676.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mafia_godfather/00a678.jpg
There are also postmarks in 1920's with slogans such as "Air Mail Saves" and "Let's Go! Citizen military training camps".
http://www.geocities.com/mafia_godfather/19649.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mafia_godfather/800px-Postmark_US_airmail_saves_time_.jpg
In 1960's, we can see privately or locally funded slogans such as "Help Goodwill Industries Help the Handicap",
http://www.geocities.com/mafia_godfather/9812.jpg
and a more recent one, in 2004... "Library Sta. Celebrating Talking Book Day Daytona Beach, FL... Reading Never Sounded So Good".
http://www.geocities.com/mafia_godfather/post.jpg
Similar examples can be found all over, this apparently has NOT been a problem for the United States citizens as they do not find it a deprivation of their freedom of speech or democratic rights. After all, the content INSIDE the envelope is what matters and protected by the basic civil right laws, and the cover of the envelope its self is normally strictly within the jurisdiction of the processing postal authority.(I am sure many people found all those cancellation, postmarks, and even stamps to be ugly or undesirable. But hey, nobody is complaining that it is a "violation of the freedom of speech") The government did not force you to write anything you dont want to write or bar you from expressing your opinion INSIDE the envelope, I think that is pretty democratic already.
USPS as a hybrid entity of "privatized for-profit organization" and "government agency" must by law maintain its neutrality by prohibiting private postmarks "... that endorse or involve the ideals, policies, programs, products, campaigns, or candidates of religious, anti-religious, commercial, political, fraternal, trade, labor, public-interest, or special-interest organizations cannot be approved." By using the USPS standard, the postmark "UN for Taiwan" is an officially government approved and imposed design that is aimed to promote Taiwan and let the world know Taiwan's desire to be a part of UN. Some people may not agree, but the government is confident that most people agree to such an advocacy on behalf of the people. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2007/06/24/2003366613
This postmark also makes no mention of "referendum" or any political ideals exclusively advocated by any specific political organization. Nothing in the logo shows "independence", "DPP", "Chen Shui Bian" or even color green! How did you come up with the conclusion that it is a form of political propaganda of the ruling party? the words on the postmarks simply state "UN For Taiwan Peace Forever". I have provided the logic basis for government's action on the "UN for Taiwan' part, now, how is the idea "peace forever" an abhorrent message to you? I would assume that more people desire peace in perpetuity than not. Just because you disagree with Taiwan's desire to be a part of the international community as a full fledged member, it does not mean you can call it an act of "dictatorship" when rest of us are perfectly fine with it. That is democracy, Mr. Talovich. While you hate what is happening, there are many of us who support whole-heartily.
Finally, "UN for Taiwan" has been around for a while, and most of the folks I know here in the States can understand what the movement is about without much confusion. It's a common marketing tone and language, obviously one cannot fit a complete sentence inside a logo or symbol and brevity is often prized and used in these circumstances. Just like "Clinton for President", "Know Bush NO Bush" or "Just say no". Marketing language has much to do with context, just because you think some foreigners cant understand it, do not insult the intelligence of all foreigners out there. UN for Taiwan simply can be interpreted as "[support an] UN [for](in favor of) Taiwan" or "UN [membership] for Taiwan". If somebody tells you that "Mr. Smith is for abortion", would you say that Mr. Smith is to be given as a gift to abortion? That would be absolutely absurd.
Just another phrase for thought, not necessarily UN related,
ReplyDelete"Let Taiwan be Taiwan"
I think this phrase/slogan really emphasizes the awkwardness of the names given to Taiwan in many of the International organizations today. ie Chinese Taipei, or the most awkward of them all, Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu (Chinese Taipei), used at the WTO.
This sounds equivalent to the postal administration stamping "Say NO to CHINA" on random outgoing mail, a KMT-controlled postal administration stamping "Return ROC to the UN" or the US stamping "Support the War on Terror" on random post originating from the US.
ReplyDeleteI simply think the governance and policies of one political party should not be imposed on private property. This is irrational, immature and uncivilized behavior that infringes upon personal property.
How about this slogan
ReplyDelete"Taiwan wants to joing the fUN"
and the lowercase "f" stands for "the effin UN"
this was one postmark in a teapot story if you ask me, since Mr T is so good at making tea. Did you see him wow the reporters on FTV with his wizard-like tea making skills? a Postmark in a Teapot. Dumb story.
Mr. Talovich almost fooled me by being on every mass media he possibly can! Maybe living in Taiwan for more than 35 years (or 40 yrs?) really messes up his native language.
ReplyDeleteFrom the Taipei Times today:
ReplyDelete----------------------
The slogan is short for "Support UN membership for Taiwan," Shieh said.
He said the government had consulted many native English speakers from the US and Britain before finalizing the slogan.
----------------------
As you can see, "Support UN memberhsip for Taiwan" is structurally different than "It's the UN for Taiwan."
I think this demonstrates my point that it was a confusing choice of words in the first place.
As you can see, "Support UN memberhsip for Taiwan" is structurally different than "It's the UN for Taiwan."
ReplyDeleteI think this demonstrates my point that it was a confusing choice of words in the first place
Agu,
There are a large number of grammatically correct ways to gloss the comment. I chose one, because it only takes one correct one to refute the blogger. I wasn't out to reconstruct the government's original thought process. Any shortened form can be understood in a number of ways.
Michael
Am I the only one here who thinks the whole bashing stem from the charge of "postmark as a government propaganda" a complete overkill?? I think people are only associating this to the DPP because DPP is a party that initiated such agenda even this is may be what everyone really wants. What if the postmark was "stop child prostitution" or "don't drink and drive"? Would we have so much problems?
ReplyDeleteLet's look at this postmark thing objectively... as I said in the email I wrote to Talovich...
This postmark makes no mention of "referendum" or any political ideals exclusively advocated by any specific political organization. Since both KMT and DPP advocated to have Taiwan join the UN, this has been something desired by Taiwan for years! Nothing in the logo shows "independence", "DPP", "Chen Shui Bian" or even color green! How did anyone come up with the conclusion that it is a form of political propaganda of the ruling party? It is NOT equivalent to slogans such as "GO BUSH!" or "KMT gets things done!" for you can tell who(specifically which political figure or organization, or special interest groups) benefits from such a message almost immediately.
The words on the postmarks simply are... "UN For Taiwan Peace Forever". If it is true that most taiwanese desire to join UN and desire peace forever, how is this even an issue?? I think the Blue camp simply scored a cheap shot by making Talovich's absurd perception of democratic concept a big media buzz. It's just SO damn EASY to make it all seem so "political".
Ken 提到...
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one here who thinks the whole bashing stem from the charge of "postmark as a government propaganda" a complete overkill??
KEN, you are so right. It was overkill. More importantly, how did Mr T's blog ever end up in the KMT's hands. That's the smoking gun here. T. lives in a poet's dreamhouse in Wulai, pours tea like a gentleman's gentleman, has been in Taiwan for 35 years unmarried? So he makes a visa run three times a year for 35 years? He must be a CIA operative.
Wang Tuoh, DPP whip was quoted in a Taipei Times article as saying that the KMT did the same thing in the past. His examples of the stamps they put on the mail are:
ReplyDelete"Speed up the process of unification with China under the Three Principles of the People" and "Fight off communism".
Basically, I feel that this issue has gotten too much press already. The same article says that those who do not want their mail stamped with the UN for Taiwan thing can request to not have it appear on their envelopes. Therefore the whole thing is ridiculous. If the blogger in question does not want it on his mail, let him request to have it removed.
The PFP has supposedly filed a lawsuit over this. Honestly, I don't think anyone will really pay attention.
anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"It was overkill. More importantly, how did Mr T's blog ever end up in the KMT's hands. That's the smoking gun here."
What makes anyone think this is a partisan shot? Why do we have to turn this into a Rush Limbaugh show? This guy obviously dislikes what the current administration is trying to do, but that doesn't mean he's kissing Ma Ying-Jiu's tushy or working for the CIA. The CIA? C'mon.
The guy's got a good point. He's also got some good Chinese...and some good publicity for whatever school he's teaching at.
hey Anonymous,
ReplyDeletethere is a section in the news article states "補習班外籍老師陶維極向本報投訴". And the news article is http://tw.news.yahoo.com/article/url/d/a/071015/2/mfc3.html
I think that was how it all got started. Mr. Talovich posted his blog on Oct 11th and the news article first came out on the 15th, so I think it made sense.
By the way, Mr. Talovich strikes again!
http://talovich.blogspot.com/
By the way, I am also mafia_godfather, but somehow I misplaced the password for that account, haha
Ken
Does anyone else think that the anonymous poster on this thread is disturbingly obsessed with Mr. T?
ReplyDeleteUnrequited love, I reckon.
Some of us are making allegations that "it's what most people in Taiwan want." First of all, this isn't confirmed, as it's the DPP's UN membership drive under a proposed state name of "Taiwan."
ReplyDeleteSecond, this is private property we're talking about--beyond the required postage stamps and postmarks, the postal administration does not have legal authority to modify personal documents or their containers at will.
Third, even if somehow it was proven to be true that all citizens back the DPP's bid and this random stamping, here are some counterexamples.
Most in the US want out of Iraq, but stamping "Bring our troops home" on random US post would not be the best way to illustrate that. It's considered politically aligned and therefore propaganda.
Most people don't like terrorism but I'm sure few would want "Screw terrorists!" on their mail.
Base line: Partisan opinions don't belong in the government interface with the masses.
Channing,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, if "most taiwanese wants taiwan to be in UN" is not confirmed, then at least it has far more credible backing than otherwise. Polls after polls showed most taiwanese people desired to be accepted and recognized in the world, a recent poll goes as far as showing vast majority feels this way.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2007/06/24/
Can you prove that the opposite is true? Most taiwanese today desire democratic system, good economy, and crime free society. Were these supported by the concensus or are they simply... unconfirmed "allegations"?
As for mail-matter being private property, I must correct you on the legal concept here. There is no law against official policies enacted on the face of envelope, there is no law in the postal codes that says that government can NOT apply any additional markings beyond the "required postage stamps and postmarks" and certainly no law states that the postal administration "does not have legal authority to modify personal documents or their containers at will." Specifically on the envelope or container, government or postal administration may apply whatever necessary to aid the postal operation. IN FACT, most postal codes around the world(namely the United States) does NOT lightly permit "personal or unofficial endorsement" on the container of the post so it might impede with official postal operation. The envelope does not become a "private property" until it is received by the recipient and therefore becomes the private property of the recipient. various people uninformed about such concept brought charges against postal services throughout the world and lost because, like you, they thought the containers/envelopes were "private property". In US, where Mr. Talovich was from, the government authorizes the postal service to open the mail if they suspect the sender has placed unlawful content inside the mail. (US Codes Title 39 Part 1 Chapter 6 and Section 604). While in transit(meaning you have already given it to the postal services), the surface of the envelope or container is within the jurisdiction of the postal authority, not the sender.
The counter-examples you have given is not really effective because it has not done before. The only thing close to that and has been done before is the example of US post mark "Buy More Bonds, Keep Them Fighting!" back in world war 2.
http://www.geocities.com/mafia_godfather/00a678.jpg
And yes, you may say that is a "political propaganda" and it certainly happened in a flagship democracy -- the US. And why was the government able to do so? Because the surface of the envelope or post container has always been within government/postal authority jurisdiction.
Bottom line is, the general guideline for an authorized slogan postmark, if not directly from the government, should NOT be anything "... that endorse or involve the ideals, policies, programs, products, campaigns, or candidates of religious, anti-religious, commercial, political, fraternal, trade, labor, public-interest, or special-interest organizations..." The UN For Taiwan postmark fits into the guideline seamlessly.
the web URL I provided in the first paragraph of the last post seems to be cut off in the middle, so I will try to provide a complete link for Channing.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives
/2007/06/24/2003366613
I have noted the legal details. However, I should add that although no current law governs modification of mail in transit, I'm sure that in the US someone would bring up a lawsuit to set a precedent should such a thing happen there. If any of the examples I mentioned were to become reality, there would be an enormous uproar.
ReplyDeleteI'm not quite sure what you mean by "UN for Taiwan" fitting seamlessly into the guidelines. Is it seamlessly fit to pass without controversy, or is it seamlessly fit for the moral rubbish bin? It's a program related to a political body.
>> But he is an excellent writer and thinker:
ReplyDelete"At the end of a busy, fulfilling day, I sometimes wonder how anybody
ever finds time to read a newspaper. There is so much to do! Aside
from yard work and chores, I have a pile of slabs of wood that I have
promised to carve for friends, tea to drink, tea pots to polish,
clouds to watch, a bookcase to repair, mantras to tell, frogs to
listen to, calligraphy to practice, recorders to play, dogs to play
with, letters to write, saplings to plant, crickets to see, books to
read and reread, paths to follow, sutras to chant, birds to admire,
and in some distant year which I hope may never arrive, I should clean
out the basement.People ask me, Don't you get bored up there in Wulai in the mountains? Are you kidding? I can barely find time to go out and earn money! I realized
that I am never bored because I do not have a television."
Man, this is sloppy writing and unorganized thinking. He is not a good writer at all, not to mention a thinker. No wonder he is so easily got brainwashed by the 外省人of his bushiban.
Channing, "UN for Taiwan" is as much a "program" of a "political body"(like Taiwan its self) as many other programs advocated by people implicitly. As I said earlier, "UN for Taiwan" fits seamlessly into the general guideline for the application of slogan postmark as accepted by many democracies today. And I would imagine Taiwan to be so. How can we tell? If we look at the slogan "UN for Taiwan Peace Forever", can we see ANY indication, ANY AT ALL shows that it is exclusively advocated by any party? Do you see DPP there? Chen Shui Bian? Green camp? or even Independence? Controversy is not a problem as long as it is not at a level where majority of people feel it is, there are ALWAYS controversy for EVERYTHING because people simply uninformed or they woke up from the wrong side of the bed. We just need to know if the point is warranted and is the controversy worth our time to go over and over again for. Heck, I have major problem paying for stamps, I strongly believe that it should be charged to our taxes at the end so I don't have to buy bunch of stamps and MORE when the rates go up. Or why do we even need to pay for stamps? Shouldn't the government protect and encourage my freedom of speech?? Why charge me for expressing my view? Why am I charged with postage when I am saying something to another?? Isn't that impediment of my "freedom of speech"? they might as well charge us when we vote, like back in the days with poll taxes! You see how these "controversies" can bring out bunch of ridiculous problems?
ReplyDeleteThere are always going to be people disagreeing, because it is democracy, but we can't tend to every issue if the rest of the country is okay with it. That is why courts have the absolute right to throw out cases that have no merit to be tried in court process.
You may find the desire of Taiwan joining UN a controversial topic and the plea its self is "rubbish", and you can say all you want AGAINST the "program" in YOUR private letter INSIDE the postmark stamped envelope... those who got your letters probably know your position anyway and would disregard the postmarks. Why are you so worried? It does not make any sense.
Do you see why there were never any "uproars" serious enough to change the fact that the sender and recipient has no actual direct power over the letter in transit while it is in the custody of the postal authority? People really just need to understand what they are talking about before they talk about it.
I honestly really like the "UN for Taiwan" slogan, and I find it pretty hard to provide any better alternatives with given restrictions.
ReplyDeleteBut I got some crude ideas to share to you all, to me, still not as good as "UN for Taiwan" or "Taiwan for UN"(courtesy of mj klein).
I came up with...
UNtie Taiwan.
main idea is to not bog Taiwan down and let Taiwan be accepted as an independent member state. At teh same time with capitalized(and possibly different colors in an actual design) UN it shows people that the UN is implied as the subject doing the "untying". At the same time, one can also see UN "tie" Taiwan, as a way to show that UN should connect with Taiwan and not barring it out. It's pretty crude, I know, but I just wanna throw it out there.
One thing about Talovich's comments is probably true--people that speak English may not understand this slogan right away--not that there's any grammetical errors, but most people(non-Taiwanese) don't know about the fact that Taiwan is not a member of 'the'(...just to humour Mr. T...) UN yet. Without this background knowledge, foreigners indeed may not understand the slogan. This is not about linguistics, it's social semiotics.
ReplyDeleteAlso, ask him to try this in China (commenting on government's policies and challenging other people's language capability in a somewhat imperialist fashion), he'll know a few things about what Chinese people's made of.
Interestingly, I was just editing a post in Mandarin about Mr.Trash, and when typing his name 陶維極, my Chinese input program gave me: 逃危急 (flee at stake)
ReplyDeleteHi Michael,
ReplyDeleteHaven't been here for a while (I've been lazy). Here's my attempt at the alternative slogan:
Taiwan for UN-ship!
I can only think of one :p ...
Great explanation, Michael. It's nice to hear different point of view about this slogan issue from different native English speaker. Aside from the privacy issue, I think Mr. Talovich has been institutionalized in "Chinatown" way too long to give some constructive opinions and to show some love for Taiwan. By the way, great blog you got here~ Keep up the good works!
ReplyDeleteGreat explanation, Michael. It's nice to hear different point of view about this slogan issue from different native English speaker. Aside from the privacy issue, I think Mr. Talovich has been institutionalized in "Chinatown" way too long to give some constructive opinions and to show some love for Taiwan. By the way, great blog you got here~ Keep up the good works!
ReplyDeleteGreat explanation, Michael. It's nice to hear different point of view about this slogan issue from different native English speaker. Aside from the privacy issue, I think Mr. Talovich has been institutionalized in "Chinatown" way too long to give some constructive opinions and to show some love for Taiwan. By the way, great blog you got here~ Keep up the good works!
ReplyDeleteHello, if you are interested in Tatsuno of Japan and can read Chinese :^^
ReplyDeletesteve在日本的生活
http://steve-at-tatsuno.blogspot.com
Talovich for the King of Morons
ReplyDelete