[By the way, I still detest the worship of false gods, but my opinion of incense has changed.] -- foreign missionary in TaiwanLast night a friend of mine called me over for a visit. She and her husband, New Zealanders widely known in the adoption community here in Taiwan, are looking for a girl to adopt, and have been stopping at orphanages up and down the island.
They've done private adoptions before, and would have no trouble locating a girl that way. But they have consciously chosen to go the more formal route, to blaze a trail for adoptive parents who come after them.
They've run into two problems. First, at many orphanages they only want Americans. Partly this is because the Americans have a well-developed set of adoption organizations that liaise with the local orphanage system.
Second, many orphanages are run by American style evangelicals. And they've been told, by at least two places, that they will not adopt children out to anyone except Born-again Christians. To demonstrate Born Again status, five letters of reference from Christians are needed, plus a letter from the pastor.
Congratulations, missionaries. You're a success.
[Taiwan]
re "false gods" -
ReplyDeleteThis transplantation of supposedly Western Christian values really sucks. My sense is that most Taiwanese are naive about the subject (not of religion in general, but mono "mania" theists), and like almost 100 percent of polytheists throughout history, are completely sanguine and tolerant towards the introduction of a new god. They too readily accept the envisionment and molding of sensibilties to incorporate the Evangelical God, the Mormon God, et al, without questioning the abandonment of rich polytheistic attributes, powers, community, etc.
Why do these zealots always feel a need to butt in and tell people how to believe and think? Yuck. Her platitudes and patronizing make me sick.
Intolerance Inc. It really sucks.
It's none of their business how other people worship, how and when consenting adults chooose to have sex, how many times they go to church, etc. The temples seem to see people relatively balanced enough.
I can understand moderate Christians (at least moderate in my estimation) encouraging people, if they pray, be it at a TaoDjao Temple or any other, to avoid praying for material things like money, etc. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, that is very good for everybody.
Hi Michael,
ReplyDeleteI am a regular reader of your very good and informative blog (shame on me, too lazy to update mine). The post concerning adoption amazed me. NO, in fact, I felt very uncomfortable. I am a French living in Taiwan and your post reminded me WWII (at least what I studied in high school): to prove you are not jewish...and save your live, you had to provide all documents starting from your grandparents... That's happened in France when German were there...
What's a similitude...
I liked your reaction about the adoption story.
Franck V.
Wow, another frenchman on this blog. I'm not alone! :D
ReplyDeleteTo go further on the post, all i see in the intense evangelisation happening in Taiwan is how business-like this is driven.
The answer your friends have been given really sound to me like "get a membership card to enjoy our benefits".
This is what a Catholic priest i met in Cheng Kung University was seeing as a major trouble: how to make Taiwanese understand that he was not looking to recruit at any cost (like the local Mormons), but more to engage them on topics of religion.
These same local Mormons used to hang around the McDonald in Gueiren (a satellite town of Tainan) and harass the too-polite-locals for hours trying to get them to buy their speech.
Sadly this show how respectful these organizations are with Taiwanese people, abusing Taiwanese's subtle politeness, and getting to the dirty methods to try and recruit as much as they can.
I got to see a bunch of them praying in a restaurant, and yelling Amen for an entire minute... I was petrified, and I had no idea how to let the Taiwaneses i went along with know they were nut jobs.
Another reason the local orphanages may prefer Americans is that Americans are accustomed to the notion of paying exorbitant fees for adopting foreign children. For those who don't know - it costs $20K -$30K to adopt a child from E. Europe, Central America, or Asia. My wife (Taiwanese) saw a Taiwan child listed on a US adoption agency website and wanted to meet the child to see if there was a potential fit (this was an older child). The US agency could not get agreement with the Taiwan orphanage for a visit and wanted us to pay the fees up front. But, after a little homework (connections do help.....), my wife found out the child was in an orphanage in Taipei County. When she visited the orphanage and asked to meet the child the proprietors literally ran her out in a very, very rude manner, screaming that she was trying to avoid paying the fees - it scared her badly. Orphanages are simply a business in the eyes of many - just like selling puppies in the night market.
ReplyDelete::LMAO::
ReplyDeleteIf a private organization, tied to say, the Catholic Church (as both St Lucy's Center and Cathwell Childrens Service of Taiwan are) decide that they will only adopt to Christians, that is their perogative. They are CHURCH BASED organizations. If you do not want to deal with a church based organization, go elsewhere. Simple. To equate that with the Nazi regime is ludicrous. To call it a "card carying benefit" is equally so, not to mention even more absurdly offensive than anything else mentioned. People, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE CHURCH, DON'T DEAL WITH THE CHURCH. Duh. Telling the Catholic Church to feel that giving babies to non-Christian families is as good as giving them to Christian families is absurd. THEY'RE THE CHURCH. It's their job to be concerned with eternal salvation.
I have to wonder if y'all have been sniffing too much incense. Does the fact that the Catholic Church seeks Christian homes for its charges REALLY surprise you? Puh-leeze! Do you really think that means Christians dislike, or look down upon non-Christians? You can't sincerely be that dense, can you? A church related organization is going to do things in a "church-related" way. Common sense here, people, please. Try.
I do not believe that it is the intention of *most* Christians to "butt in" or "force an issue", but we DO believe that we are called to spread the word of Christ. Whether others believe in Him IS our concern. If a person I speak to about CHrist chooses NOT to take what I say and embrace it, that is his or her perogative as well. I, personally, have a lot of non-Christian friends. Thankfully, they're a good deal smarter and more thougtful than certain posters here. Don't you see that it is JUST as "intolerant inc" to make grandiose over-statements about Christians? Talk about doltish behavior!
As for forcing Taiwanese into believing and converting. Come on! You can not FORCE someone to believe you, EVER. To listen, perhaps, but to believe? Get real. Once the Christian walks away, the non-believer is left with a choice. There is no forcing anything. It's not like the poor "polite" Taiwanese "victims" of these Evangelicals (oh brother!) are being told at gun point to believe. Hardly. Don't you realize just how stupid this all sounds? You guys are drinking too much of your own koolaid, I think..
And BTW; just a heads up, annoymous poster; the orphanages DO NOT receive $20-30k from American adoptions. Yes, there are fees to adopt, fees to the agency, the government, and yes, SOME money to the orphanage. But you're WAAAY off on what they receive. You should get the facts before you shoot off at the mouth.
Furthermore, a percentage of children/infants in Taiwanese orphanages are "reserved" for domestic adoptions, and those adoptive Taiwanese parents will make the same monetary donation an American will.
You want to fix the problem? Encourage the Taiwanese government to offer prenatal care to unwed mothers, and orphanage care for unwanted babies, and then you'll have a non-religious alternative. But when the Catholic church is shouldering the burden of caring for the mothers, and the babies, don't be so naive as to assume they shouldn't have a say in where those children are placed. The children were given to them to care for, and they're doing what they believe is correct. What a lot of us believe is correct.
Trail blazing, schmail blazing. The attempt of a non-Christian to adopt through the Catholic church isn't seeting an example, it's just another attempt to rock the boat. It's foolish, and hardly admirable. Call it whatever floats your boat, but a wolf in sheeps clothing is still a wolf. Hooray for the Catholic Church for having the guts to do what's right for them and not bowing to the pressure of those who simply enjoy making waves.
Boo Hiss to intolerant Christian bashers who WILL regret their actions on judgment day. You don't want to know the truth? Don't. but don't think that gives you the right to bash those who HAVE learned of The Way, The Truth and The Light.
Your poor pathetic selves will be in my prayers. God bless you.. you need it.
If a private organization, tied to say, the Catholic Church (as both St Lucy's Center and Cathwell Childrens Service of Taiwan are) decide that they will only adopt to Christians, that is their perogative.
ReplyDeleteNope. These organizations are vetted and licensed by the government. They have equal responsibility to everyone in society, not just people who share their particular flavor of authority-worship. Children are a resource of the whole nation, not just a particular exclusive group.
Telling the Catholic Church to feel that giving babies to non-Christian families is as good as giving them to Christian families is absurd.
We don't give a shit what they feel. "Feeling" is not our concern, only that live up to their social responsibilities. It's blatant discrimination and authoritarian control. It's the problem when the government uses religious institutions -- the quality of services falls, the extent of services falls, and the religious institution attempts to bring everyone under its control. Sucks.
Oh, and isn't this charity work? Are you now saying it isn't charity? That it is about control and power?
THEY'RE THE CHURCH. It's their job to be concerned with eternal salvation.
Churches are concerned with control, not salvation. Salvation is just a tool for attaining leverage over the minds and bodies of believers.
Do you really think that means Christians dislike, or look down upon non-Christians?
If the adopters only sought homes with whites, would that be taken by people as a sign they looked down on non-whites?
Isn't your question just a bit stupid? Especially when you end this post by condemning all who don't believe with you to Hell?
Yes, if a group is excluded, it is safe to say it is looked down upon.
As for forcing Taiwanese into believing and converting. Come on! You can not FORCE someone to believe you, EVER. To listen, perhaps, but to believe? Get real.
This comment is so vapidly ignorant of history that it is hard to deal with. Forced belief is the usual method of conversion to Christianity throughout history. See history of European Christianity, South America, Goans, African Christianity, etc, etc, etc. The idea of voluntary conversion is a new one, related to the decline in the temporal power of Christianity, and embraced most unwillingly by the various denominations, who continue, whenever possible, to use what leverage they have. When I lived in Africa, the Church in our area attempted to take control of my school by shutting off our water supply....
And, it must be pointed out, that all instances of raising children as Christians are instances of "forced belief" since children do not have the ability to give informed consent to their conversion. If Christianity is so great, why does it need to proceed by brainwashing children?
One thing I've learned over the years in interacting with Christians is that there is no one so ignorant of Christianity as a Christian.
Boo Hiss to intolerant Christian bashers who WILL regret their actions on judgment day.
As I noted, after the expressions of hatred and contempt comes the death threat.
You don't want to know the truth? Don't. but don't think that gives you the right to bash those who HAVE learned of The Way, The Truth and The Light.
Shit. I read your Bible every day. I've been an admin and a mod for a couple of high level discussion groups on early Christianity. I know more about "the Truth" right now than you ever will. See my Commentary on Mark, link on the sidebar.
Your poor pathetic selves will be in my prayers.
Tsk-tsk, such nasty language, the language of authority and control is. I'm sure your prayers will be as effective as prayer always is.
Michael
You sad, small, pitiful excuse for a man. You know nothing save a lot of "big words". While I recognize that many a simpleton can be fooled into believing that a large vocabulary equals a high IQ, some of us know better.
ReplyDeleteI thank God the Catholic church is saving innocent children from the likes of you.
Don't you worry your big air-filled head about me condemning you to hell, you're very capable of doing that for yourself.
I hope you change you ways, and learn about the things that matter. In the meantime, I'll step up my considerable donations to the very organizations that keep the likes of you from putting another innocent victim of the road to hell and misery. Money talks, and mine says F--- you!
Is that a Christian attitude? Nope! I'm not perfect.. just forgiven.. which is a lot more than YOU can say.
Burn, baby, burn. Enjoy the brimstone.. it stinks as badly as your pitiful blog.
Thanks, anon. I'll let your comments stand, they are a more effective argument for my case than I ever could make.
ReplyDeleteMichael
I am not sure what Orphanages you are talking about. However, we adopted from Cathwel and were never even asked about our Religion. I know many Atheists and Jewish people who have successfully adopted thru them.
ReplyDeleteThanks, anon. I wasn't given the names of the orphanages, just the appalling information. From a very easygoing and tolerant person who had suddenly come around to seeing the sense in my way of thinking.
ReplyDeleteMichael
Hi,
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I are atheists and are adopting from Taiwan. In the US, I'd estimate about 30-40% of the agencies were willing to work with us. Also we were informed that the placing agencies (the ones that you mentioned in your blog) would make decisions based on religion. i.e. They tend to show preferential treatment to Christian (esp. Catholic) families and it would take much longer for us to be matched.
We were very happy to learn this before we committed to any agency financially. We were also happy to find an agency and placing agency where religion, or lack there of, isn't an issue. They create a waiting list and it's a "first come, first served" philosophy (sorry if that sounds crass).
For what it's worth, in the adoption community as a whole has strong religious affiliations. We actually had an agency that would not allow us to look a Special Need's child's file because we were atheist. They opted to return his file back to China, which could have meant he would have never been adopted. That was a very shocking experience for us--but I'm happy to report that his file was sent to another agency and he quickly found his forever family.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI would like to clarify the adoption situation that was mentioned in your original posting. Cathewel and St. Lucy's do not limit adoptions to only Catholics or Christians. The orphanages that the New Zealanders went to were probably some of the much smaller orphanages affiliated with Evangelical churches and those do state on their websites that they only want "proven" Christians to adopt the orphans in their orphanages. As a Taiwanese, I do NOT like Christians in Taiwan, because they are very intolerant of our Chinese/Taiwanese beliefs and traditions. For example, one of my aunties converted to (I think) Baptist and she would no longer pray to our ancestors which is still quite a big deal to our family. I see praying to our ancestors as a way of showing some minimum respect and apprciation to people who actually gave us lives and a great deal of lands. That is more than I can say for the Christians. They only want to take our money (like 10% of our income for the "Church":) and say that we would get salvation... PLEASE!!! :)
This is a very interesting thread! I just happened to come upon it. Thank you Michael for your comments, I was very impressed by you.
ReplyDeleteI was born and raised Christian in the US. That being said, I was always uncomfortable with "missionaries" who attempted to "save" people. In fact, at an early age I felt very uncomfortable with Christianity. Mainly because I had too many experiences with "Christians" like the one that posted! Rude, obnoxious, judgmental, and more importantly hateful. I find it interesting that the more religious Christians are, the more hateful they become. What right do they have to utterly destroy a culture?? I know they have been doing this for centuries. I have a few friends that are Filipino and asked them what religious beliefs did their country have before the Spanish settled there and they didn't know!! How sad that they lost that part of their heritage!
As far as having to be Christian or "born again" to adopt in Taiwan, that is not true. I'm a single woman from the US that is attempting to adopt a little girl from Taiwan. I also happen to be agnostic, but did tell the adoption agency that I plan on raising my daughter to be Buddhist. They all seemed fine with it. I don't know if they are telling the organization in Taiwan anything different. I did have to sign a document that swore I was a heterosexual and that if I find a "suitable partner" that I would get married (that was a rude awakening!). I was very hesitant and uncomfortable on signing that document; not because I'm gay, but because I believe in gay rights.
Well, this American girl and former Christian, with blonde hair, and blue eyes, needs to get going! I have a date with my India-born Muslim boyfriend for breakfast!
Thanks again Michael! The way you handled that crazy Christian woman was truly amazing. I want to print out your response and hang in up on my refrigerator so everyone can enjoy your brilliance like I did!
Thanks!
ReplyDeleteI have been running into difficulties with adopting from Tawain not because of my religion but because I am single. No one will help me adopt.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to jump in to the fray here, but I do want to clarify one point. I have a friend adopting from one of the American evangelical mission orphanages. They do require references to confirm parent's belief system. They also charge no fees to the adopting parents for finding and caring for the children, managing all of the legal and immigration issues, etc.
ReplyDeleteThis is unheard of in the adoption community.
Michael is an idiot in my opinion, a freaking weirdo, and my goodness where did you come from, you think you know everything and are so way off base in so many things it's incredible. We have adopted from Taiwan, there are christian places there are non christian places, it's called competition, if you don't like one, go with another. Our adoption cost less than $15,000, the orphanage in Taiwan got VERY LITTLE of that and it took less than a year. That was 9 months ago, March. 2010. They also told us that they prefered to adopt to people in Taiwan first, China second and Americans 3rd.
ReplyDeleteDork, the article is very clear in saying SOME PLACES have this problem. The fact that you successfully and cheaply adopted indicates, as clearly stated, that some places do not have this problem.
ReplyDeleteGreat comment, thanks for helping me make my point.
Outstand work, Michael.
ReplyDeleteGood job of putting that love-filled Nazi-Christian in is place. It's unfortunate that to him and his fellow teabaggers your educated view will never made no kinda nevemind nohow to no one.
I feel like I should weigh in on this since I have some personal experience. we adopted our son 3 years ago from st lucys. the only time I have ever set foot in a church is for other peoples funerals and weddings, I was raised atheist and skeptical of what my parents called "jesus freaks" my wife's family stopped going to episcopal church when she was 7 and she has never wanted to go back, we're about as religious as bill maher. I don't even say "bless you" when someone sneezes. I've always thought of the catholic church as a bunch of child molesters telling africans to not use condoms. st lucys didn't care at all, never asked about religion, never prayed with us and the nuns there took such amazing care of my son for the first 16 months of his life that I will always be in debt to them. I am an american and I know that the system in taiwan is that orphans are put up for taiwanese families first then chinese and after that "foreigners". doesn't really matter what country they're from they get in line behind the taiwanese. there are requirements that a couple is married and not gay, but those requirements are from the taiwanese government and not the church, as are the preference for local adoption. a lot of countries have those rules, china says single adoptive mothers can't have a female roomate just in case they're secret lesbians and I don't think the catholic church has much sway with the chinese govt. a lot of countries are embarrassed when foreigners adopt their orphans because it makes them look 3rd world, so they put up roadblocks along the way to save face. I always got the impression that when mao took over china, the capitalists all went to hong kong and the religious nuts went to taiwan. as for the cost, it did cost us about 30k, 10k of that was a donation to st lucys. if anybody out there has tried to raise kids you'll agree that spending 10k for all of their clothes, food, toys, diapers etc. for 16 months is a bargain, and that's where the donations go, trust me nobody gets rich off of orphans, if they did the international hague treaty on adoption would cut off adoptions from that country as they have in several poor countries already. the other 20k went to the bureaucracy in taiwan and the us, lawyers, translators, immigration fees etc. as for the woman who wanted to kick the tires before adopting an older child, think of it from the child's perspective, and how they would feel being inspected to see if they "match". you're not shopping, it's a human being, you don't get to pick the one you like best, and there's no return policy. now I work for our adoption agency (that is not at all religious and has a ton of gay families that we work with) and I do come in to contact with some people who are all about the jesus, I grit my teeth and smile because whatever the reason for adopting, everyone should do it. religion and tribalism brings out the best and the worst in people I guess. if more christians actually read the instruction manual I wouldn't despise them so much, and maybe they would have come across this part in james 1:27 "Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress"
ReplyDelete