My man STOP_MA has a small collection of photos online here. And he started an online Resign Ma petition.
ESWN blogs on the "how many attended" issue. Many people around the net have commented on the insane Hong Kong newspapers that Roland put up: claiming that 1.5 million people attended the pro-Blue protests. [howls with laughter].
There's video of the madness here, but I can't get it to work. Good luck. STOP_MA has more video here.
Also on ESWN is the letter from Teresa Shih to her father, Shih Ming-teh, pinpointing the fact that many of us have bemoaned: the complete lack of positive values associated with his campaign to bring down the President. It offers nothing for Taiwan.
Taiwan News editorializes that the big loser from yesterday was Wang Jin-pyng:
But Tuesday's biggest loser was KMT Legislative Yuan Speaker Wang Jin-pyng, whose firm guarantees that the pan-blue parties would not disrupt the National Day rally persuaded the Presidential Office to permit the event. However, Wang's guarantees and his own political credibility were left in tatters by the antics of 30 red-shirtted KMT and PFP lawmakers who used the uni-dimensional dress code, gesture, slogan and banners of the "Depose Chen" protesters to disrupt Chen's address in front of a global audience.
...and also says the big winner was Chen. Looks to me like the big loser was Ma, who took a hit from all the disorder, and for permitting an illegal demonstration in Taipei -- Shih Ming-teh had demonstrated his total contempt for Ma by not even bothering to apply for a permit to hold a demonstration. And Ma did nothing. Getting Ma to take a position is like trying to get a mound of custard to hold a shape. Meanwhile at the demonstration yesterday Shih thumbed his nose at Ma all day long, constantly changing direction and completely fouling up the city's traffic, triggering more complaints from Mayor Whiner. No wonder spectator sports are so undeveloped here: with politics like this, who needs bread and circuses?
Random notes: Today Taipei Mayor and KMT Chairman Ma Ying-jeou was whining that "Why does this stuff always happen in Taipei?" Hint: its because you're an invertebrate, Mayor Ma. Wulingren reports that Wang Yu-cheng, he of the Funeral Food Fakery, (which ESWN has here, prefaced with one of his usual hacks on Taiwan's democracy), is running for office under the PFP banner. The "anti-corruption" PFP, whose leader is Taiwan's biggest tax evader, once again hands us a quality candidate with a spotless resume. Thanks, guys.
[Taiwan] [KMT] [Democracy] [DPP] [PFP] [Shih Ming-deh/Shih Ming-te] [Chen Shui-bian] [media] [Ma Ying-jeou]
I liked President Chen's speech very much.
ReplyDeleteHere is the full text in English at
CNA It's one of the red headlines. There were also some excellent editorials at the Taipei Times, one of which points out that National Day is basically a celebration of the KMT, and yet they were the ones disrupting it. Isn't it funny that it was the DPP who was upholding it, at least for this year.
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O.K., Michael -- you've finally forced me to create another account for my blog-name, "STOP_Ma" :>)
I don't expect much from this petition that I created (to be honest with you), but I hope it may inspire other Taiwanese to hold this man accountable. A true "leader" does not smile and say, "Oh well. There's just too many people down there to do anything about it." while they make a mockery of the country and democracy using his city as a backdrop for violent acts.
A true "leader" will pro-actively seek out and negotiate for solutions BEFORE THE EVENT TAKES PLACE in order to allow the other people in the city to go about their lives with the least inconvenience. If that is impossible, then a true "leader" will set a firm ultimatum and respond with reasonable force, if necessary. One thing's for certain, though. A true "leader" does not let a mob take over the main train station in Taipei -- where others (who are not part of the mob) feel threatened and are severely inconvenienced on their national holiday.
Ma Ying-jeou is a failure in every sense of being a "leader".
Nowhere was it more evident than when men and women were pounding on the cars of bewildered foreign dignitaries - decorating their cars with red ornaments that have nothing to do with the democratic process.
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Hey Michael! How com I don't see you blog on the incident where these true rioters in Tainan kept attacking that lady in her red car?
ReplyDeleteSo you view from Taiwan is biased after all....
BTW I truely hope that something like that will never happen to your daughter.
>>>the big winner was Chen.
ReplyDeleteWhat did Mr. Chen win? A chance to demonstrate his domestic popularity before international guests?
A pretty impressive and well-organized collection. Thank you, Michael.
ReplyDeleteThe likely development now would be the media starting to conduct some major backstabbing on Shih to save Ma's butt. Put in the Soong factor, it'll be very, very interesting for the days to come.
Ref. link
http://www.socialforce.tw/phpBB/post_422792.html#422792
--domesticopinions
Hey Michael! How com I don't see you blog on the incident where these true rioters in Tainan kept attacking that lady in her red car?
ReplyDeleteBecause I blogged on it on two other blogs. And saved myself the trouble here at tVfT by linking to ESWN's post on it. Maybe you should scan a little closer next time, eh?
So you view from Taiwan is biased after all....
It took you this long to discover that? No wonder you're pro-Blue.
BTW I truely hope that something like that will never happen to your daughter.
You mean become dumb enough to be a pro-blue, incite a hostile crowd with arrogant behavior toward a cop, and then get beaten up? Yes, I hope my daughter is never pro-Blue.
The likely development now would be the media starting to conduct some major backstabbing on Shih to save Ma's butt. Put in the Soong factor, it'll be very, very interesting for the days to come.
Good point. I got a sense that the Blue media is getting kind of ambivalent about it all.
What did Mr. Chen win? A chance to demonstrate his domestic popularity before international guests?
ROFL.
Michael
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What did Mr. Chen win? A chance to demonstrate his domestic popularity before international guests?
If you think guys in red jackets and shades weaving in and out of an official procession like some Tom & Jerry cartoon is going to make the foreign dignitaries think of Chen's "domestic popularity", then I've got a dozen "peace" pandas to sell you.
I think the personal reaction from these foreign officials was more like, "Who are these clowns?!" and "Where the hell is the security?"
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The likely development now would be the media starting to conduct some major backstabbing on Shih to save Ma's butt.
Judging by PandaMa's latest comments, the Pan-blue media will have their work cut out for them.
Psst...Hey, Ma Ying-jeou. A word of advice...
Blaming the president for your incompetence is not going to make you look good.
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>>>ROFL
ReplyDeleteConsidering your age, that might not be good for your back. I hope you at least have carpet.
>>>If you think guys in red jackets and shades weaving in and out of an official procession...
The 10.10 incident is an embarrassment for everyone, both on the blue and the green side. To say that someone had “won” is as crazy as it is ridiculous. Nobody won squat.
I am disappointed in the extremists who have deviated from common sense to blindly support their guy even in light of such obvious facts. I am equally disappointed in those who have blindly endorsed the view of “Chen has won.” This only demonstrates one thing: the green supporters are not very far apart from the blue supporters when it comes to judgment. I guess that’s at least one thing to take comfort in.
Anon, I said "ROFL" because I thought the comment was funny. I have no idea whether Chen has "won" and no one in this thread blindly supports anyone or anything. Come down off that high horse you're riding.
ReplyDeleteMichael
>>>Anon, I said "ROFL" because I...
ReplyDeleteMy mistake then. One way or the other, please do treat your back seriously. Nothing would sadden me more to learn that you will be unable to blog due to back pain....
Mayor Ma is a brainwashing victim of his own pan blue media. Now he's spouting off their catch phrases in order to defend himself: It's Chen's fault because "The president of a developed country would have stepped down by now", and "Whose family is so corrupt that millions of people protest against them on the streets? Is it helpful to criticize me every day?".
ReplyDeleteJust try and engage any "Depose Chen" person in a 'conversation' and they immediately start reciting the same groundless trash spewed by the pan-blue media: "The economy is in a shambles because of A-Bian", "The suicide rate has increased because of A-Bian", "Everything Shih Ming-teh is doing is A-Bian's fault because he refuses to step down", "A-Bian will manipulate the judicial system so we cannot trust the due process of law".
If you don't believe the above just try it. I kid you not - the level of brainwashing is scary. The amazing part is that the media also tries to portray the northern part of Taiwan as highly educated and intellectual and the southern part as a bunch of angry farmers. Well, just look at what recently happened at Double 10 and tell me how it's any different than what happened in the south......
Dear Stop Ma:
ReplyDeleteThank you for the 'depose Ma' campaign! I fully support it!
What I'm also eagerly awaiting is somebody to start a campaign to expose the accounting of the Shih Ming-teh campaign. What were the amounts and sources of the funds? Who has signature authority over it? How was/is it being distributed? Who needs to be paying taxes on it?
This could realistically be done by hiring some legal folks to take it on. My NT$100 donation (per month) is ready to go!!!! No, make that NT$1,000!!!
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The 10.10 incident is an embarrassment for everyone, both on the blue and the green side. To say that someone had “won” is as crazy as it is ridiculous. Nobody won squat.
Why are you commenting about people "winning"? Very curious.
Of course the issue is not one of "who won". The issue is about "accountability" in a democracy.
The leaders of the 10/10 protest have committed crimes on that day -- committing violent acts against foreign dignitaries and threatening innocent Taipei citizens during an illegally held protest. They also shamed a nation with their silly over-the-top antics -- interferring with official ceremonies (click on THIS LINK to see those embarrassing photos).
The Mayor of Taipei is in contempt of his own city laws -- failing to even come close to enforcing or trying to prevent this illegal activity from occurring. What's more, this has been a regular dereliction of duty for the Mayor of Taipei. And tell me something -- what, pro-actively, is Ma Ying-jeou doing to prevent another illegal event from happening this weekend in his city? I'll help answer that for you. So far, Ma Ying-jeou has simply stated that he "respects" the Taipei Police force's decision to revoke the red-ant protest this weekend. Again, what formidable leadership from this man (/snark)!!
And BTW, what laws did the pan-greens break on Double Ten Day?
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It saddens me that Taiwan had to "lose face" (diu1 lian3) in front of a global audience...
ReplyDeleteQuoting from stop_ma : I think the personal reaction from these foreign officials was more like, "Who are these clowns?!" and "Where the hell is the security?" Very nicely put.
I read a article by Professor Jim Lee titled "Why celebrate the birth of a nation that is already gone?" (translated title). It points out the ROC is long gone, the pan-blue were the ones who wish to uphold it, yet they made such a fool out of the national celebration, yet the pro-independence DPP is hosting the celebration... Could that be the reason that they wanna crash the party? Because "ROC" belongs to the Chinese?
I hope to have a real Taiwan's National Day celebration, the one that celebrates a nation being born in Taiwan.
The tide may be slowly changing. When actions disturb the business of carrying out life, it will hopefully not be too much longer before the rank and file see who is causing difficulties. Opinion polls are starting to indicate this.
ReplyDeleteThe pan-blue people and turncoats they use shall soon reap the results of what they have nurtured.
Thank the cosmos that the majority of people here are indeed honest, kind and unviolent, but less informed than one would hope. Otherwise, a real letting of blood could be expected.
If the pan-blues continue, though, I wonder how far tolerance can be forgiving.
What worries me is that the pan-blues still believe that China will come to their aid, and that they could retain power through this. Lien back in China.
Well, we all have our dreams, and nightmares, for that natter.
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If you don't believe the above just try it. I kid you not - the level of brainwashing is scary. The amazing part is that the media also tries to portray the northern part of Taiwan as highly educated and intellectual and the southern part as a bunch of angry farmers. Well, just look at what recently happened at Double 10 and tell me how it's any different than what happened in the south......
If it gives you any comfort, Indoctrination by the pro-blue Taiwanese media has not been as successful as the same effort in the United States of America by the right-wing corporate media. Most Taiwanese -- educated or not -- realize the outrageous bias in the media here. Every reasonable person I talk to (blue or green) understand this fact of life in Taiwan.
Half the battle is to know that it exists. The other half is to fight for change. I knew I could trust the Taiwanese to eventually see past the gleeming innocent smile of Ma Ying-jeou back 2 years ago when he was a political "heart-throb" of sorts. It took Americans 5+ years to understand that George W. Bush is a small pathetic immoral little man. Well, the Taiwanese should count themselves lucky that they have had the chance (in about half the time) to see that Ma Ying-jeou is of the same calibre -- well before he can have the chance to destroy this beautiful little nation with his negligence.
Bush graduated from Yale. Ma, from Harvard. The completion of higher education, my friend, is not a metric for knowing "what is right".
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Dear Stop Ma:
Thank you for the 'depose Ma' campaign! I fully support it!
Thank YOU for providing your electronic signature (I'm sure that you did).
I encourage any Taiwanese out there to start a "Resign, Ma" petition of your own in Mandarin. It's very important that we stop the political aspirations of this man RIGHT NOW.
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>>>Why are you commenting about people "winning"? Very curious.
ReplyDeleteBecause it was a glaring misstatement, or do you not see that? Again, please tell me what Mr. Chen had won? Trip for two to Disneyland? The George Foreman Grill? The fiasco on Tuesday was an embarrassment to everyone. Chen “won” the chance to show his unpopularity and the ability to draw the largest dissent crowd in the history of Taiwan. The idiot PFP guys “won” the chance to show how little blood they have in their brains. And their idiot colleagues in the DPP also “won” the chance to show off their kung fu skills on Li Ching-hua of KMT (not that Li didn’t have it coming). This is utter humiliation of Taiwan on the international stage.
The issue is more than “accountability.” The issue is how the extremists from both sides have ruined this democracy. Extremists have no color, and blue extremists are just as bad as the green ones. They are the same, just packaged differently. My problem, is that very few of these extremists seem to realize how much of a clown they have become and how sick people are of the circus. Instead, they continue their propaganda and try to drag more and more people into their political agendas. This is no longer funny.
You sir, are an extremist in my eyes. You actions demonstrate that you are equally capable of the vices that you accuse others of. Your selective memory of only what looks good to your side is found widely in the pan-green, and quite frankly, common to the pan-blue too. Please, spend some time to talk to some real persons and not just those who agree with you, listen to their cocerns have and infuse some common sense in your head. The people have spoken, and have said it repeatedly. They are tired of the extremists hijacking this island.
Please cut the people a break.
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The issue is more than “accountability.” The issue is how the extremists from both sides have ruined this democracy.
You are simply wrong, IMO. Taiwan STILL has a thriving democracy. A lot of change needs to be implemented -- granted. But, my goodness, man! Taiwan has only been a democracy for just over 10 years.
You sir, are an extremist in my eyes. You actions demonstrate that you are equally capable of the vices that you accuse others of.
Really?! That's news to me. Can you please elaborate on how I'm an "extremist" in your eyes so I may respond to you in a reasoned way.
Your selective memory of only what looks good to your side is found widely in the pan-green, and quite frankly, common to the pan-blue too.
Even if this were true (which it's not -- and I've been critical of the greens many times before)-- "extremism" is not how this is defined. This is called "being a political hack". "Extremism" involves engaging in radical -- often violent -- activities to push one's agenda. The pan-greens once committed to an "extremist" agenda (although relatively tame extremists by world standards). However, their form of "extremism" was against institutionalized tyranny -- a noble cause in my opinion.
The pan-blue "extremism", on the other hand, is against institutionalized DEMOCRACY -- not so noble, in my opinion.
Please, spend some time to talk to some real persons and not just those who agree with you, listen to their cocerns have and infuse some common sense in your head.
I have spoken with many pan-blue suporters and all of them so happen to agree with me now. Shih's approach to this corruption issue is WRONG and undemocratic. Ma Ying-jeou's approach to "leadership" is pathetic. These pan-blue Taiwanese are disgusted with both Shih and Ma. If you don't believe me, that's fine. But the recent opinion polls would indicate otherwise.
The people have spoken, and have said it repeatedly. They are tired of the extremists hijacking this island.
Please cut the people a break.
Then I would suggest booting the "extremists" out of power come the next election -- this is a democracy, afterall. I would also suggest ousting the people who enable these "extremists" (like PandaMa). And if you don't have a "non-extreme" member running for office -- then run yourself.
As an addendum, I would like to state that I believe (for the most part), the Taiwanese have no one to blame but themselves for this debacle in politics. In December, 2004, the Taiwanese citizens had the chance to oust these "extremists" from power. However -- due mostly to locally corrupt politics -- the Taiwanese citizens continued to enable an "extremist" party for another 4(?) years. A party that turns its back on the democratic process. Indeed, a party that has proven itself to be poison to democratic ideals for 40+ years. What has this majority party in the legislature done in the past couple of years? It has done everything in its power to obstruct any progress by the ruling party. It has spent the majority of its time trying to either 1) de-legitimize the democratically elected government of Taiwan and / or 2) depose the democratically elected President. Everything the pan-blues have done in the past 2 years has been UNPRODUCTIVE for Taiwan. The President's hands have effectively been tied because of this grave error by the Taiwanese people for allowing this "extremist" party to maintain their thuggery in the legislature.
That said, the President and his party have not been clean themselves -- that is for certain. However, at least the pan-greens (more or less) RESPECT the cause that they once fought for. The pan-blues merely pay "lip-service" to this cause. I'll leave it up to the reader to judge whether this distinction that I have made labels me as an "extremist" or not.
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2006/10/14 23:44
ReplyDeleteDear Mr. Michael Turton,
To reply your letter, I would like to invite your attention to the follows:
1. You were invited by a democratic dictator of Taiwan. You knew him by reading the latest
events and you attended the celemonies of our Double Tenth out of your vanity desires. You
knew that he has only less than 18 percent supporter and yet you attended the party. I think
you deserved what you saw and you got.
2. Taiwan is far from well demorcratic countries like the States and Canada. The country is still not governed by Rules of law. The people of Taiwan in majority has not been given the full human right to protest. Mayer Ma failed in providing the basic security to those distinguished guests with my understanding. However, what I wanted to say is that you should point your finger at top who invited you. I guess your view is sided with DPP. Blaiming the poor security to Major Ma of Taipei city is unfair.. And to that extend, I do not think your claim worth our support.
3. Your act constitutes the interference with local government. A foreigner is not entitled to
do that unless you wrote the letter in your blog out of your political gain or rewarded some
thing materially. May I further suggest that the purpose was out of your complex sense
of superiorty?
That is what I feel toward your complaint.
Sincerely Yours
Anon, I'm not sure what you mean.
ReplyDelete*I was never invited to Double 10. I didn't go.
*Chen is not a dictator; his main trouble is the limited power of the ROC Presidency. I wish you pro-Blue types actually knew something about Taiwan.
*The people in Taiwan have the right of protests -- there are protests every day on many different topics. If Taiwan is not yet a democracy, it is because so many on the Blue side continue to oppose democracy.
*What "act" did I do that interfered with local government? I think you are seriously on crack.
Michael
anon said: invited by a democratic dictator of Taiwan
ReplyDeleteYes, Michael, I believe this guy (well it could be a woman, but I doubt it) is on crack. What the heck is "a democratic dictator?" For one hundred thousand bucks, "What is an oxymoron?"
I love these crazy letters! I hope you don't take them personally. I find them vastly entertaining!
mind your own business.
ReplyDeleteand by the way, this is Taiwan, we speak Chinese.
台灣人有權力有能力來評斷誰該下台
誰不該。
當那麼多人都自發性的出來請總統下台
他就該摸摸鼻子下台，接受司法調查。
若大家對馬英久不滿，
自然會有人請他走人。
不用您老在這裡貼一些您“蒐集”來的影像
請大家反對他。
我們知道誰有能力當總統
誰不能。
以我們的角度看來
陳水扁先生在國慶的發言，只能用寡廉鮮恥來形容了。
我是不知道您聽不聽的懂中文啦，
或是中文講話的語氣啦。
Anon writes:
ReplyDelete台灣人有權力有能力來評斷誰該下台
誰不該。
當然了!我也有權力觀察及評論!
當那麼多人都自發性的出來請總統下台他就該摸摸鼻子下台，接受司法調查。
當那麼多藍人...
若大家對馬英久不滿，自然會有人請他走人。
你的意思是:另一方不可以反對?
我們知道誰有能力當總統誰不能。
這反對陳水扁的活動的起源是政治,不是
"能力"
以我們的角度看來
"我們"是誰?
陳水扁先生在國慶的發言，只能用寡廉鮮恥來形容了。
我是不知道您聽不聽的懂中文啦，
或是中文講話的語氣啦。
你的意思根本是什麼?我不應該說出我的意見給別的外國人聽?
Michael
Who say Dirty Chen's is good?
ReplyDelete