The "Million Voices Against Corruption" campaign led by Shih began a week-long protest last Saturday and its leaders have vowed to continue until they achieve their goal.
The aim of the demonstration, said one protester yesterday, is to force Chen to "leave Taiwan alone" by relinquishing his presidency as soon as possible.
Despite the threat of rain and high winds from Typhoon Shan-Shan, an estimated 320,000 protestors turned out last night to march on a 5.5 kilometer route on the city's streets. Organizers put the crowd size at almost double the preliminary police estimate, saying the more that half a million people had taken to the streets in what was said to be one of the largest demonstrations the country has ever see.
Thankfully, the event seems to have gone on peacefully and the threats of violence did not materialize. The rally's one-sidedness was evidenced by its attendees:
Political heavyweights such as Taipei City mayoral candidate Hau Lung-bin (郝龍斌), People First Party Chairman James Soong (宋楚瑜), Taichung City Major Jason Hu (胡志強) and Taipei County Magistrate Chou Hsi-wei (周錫瑋) also joined the demonstration.
Not a prominent Green among them. As I've said before, if you are against corruption, what is Taiwan's biggest tax evader, James Soong, doing up there?
I ran into some of the protesters yesterday in Taichung. They were apparently waiting for buses, and had decorated a footbridge.
The meeting site appears to be an interesting statement on the real politics of the "protest" up in Taipei. The wall behind the protesters is the Confucius Temple in Taichung, which is also the Martyr's Shrine to the soldiers who died for the Republic of China fighting the Japanese -- in other words, the "non-partisan" protesters met at a KMT landmark.
Special: A good example of the way people in China think about democracy comes from the pro-China blogger ESWN's remarks posted the other day:
Permalink] Democracy Wins (09/16/2006) What is wrong with democracy (as in universal suffrage)? The most obvious flaw is that it rewards those who are able to win elections, but who are subsequently ill-suited and ill-equipped for their elected positions. Here is an egregious example from an election campaign (from Dalily Kos):
Of course, when it comes to picking people ill-suited for their positions, authoritarianism is far, far worse (see history books for Mao, Chiang, Hitler, Stalin, Franco, and their henchmen). Like many Chinese, ESWN grew up in a society that has no concept of civic culture and rule of law, and thus, when looking at democracy, he is essentially like a tone-deaf man trying to appreciate Mozart. Too many Chinese, especially in ESWN's generation, view democracy as a kind of distasteful anarchy. Sad. The pro-Blue protests against Chen up in Taipei are the ultimate evolution of the lack of civic culture: since the Blues cannot beat Chen at the ballot box, they refuse to work with him at all, or work for Taiwan. Democracy is more than just voting; it is the development of a civil society, the rule of law, and the recognition of good faith in others, and the extension of good faith to their actions. It also requires that losers accept their losses and move on. Thus, ESWN comments:
Is this the way to elect the best representative in the legislative branch of the nation? But how many of us have the time and energy to keep up with this nonsense, which is financed by gadzillions of special interest donations?
Yes, Roland, competitive elections are the way to elect the best representative for the legislature. Why? Because in democracy, the candidate elected is by definition the best. "Best" is a value for which there is no objective measure; there is no transcendent location outside our human conversation where we can find definition for the "best" representative. Democracy, in one sense, represents a search for that definition of "the best", and a negotiation process for declaring it. It appears that many in the Chinese culture sphere still don't get it.
[Taiwan]
How do you know the protesters met at the landmark because it's a "KMT landmark" and not because it's a convenient and easily recognizable place to meet (hence, landmark)? Also, the Martyr's Shrine is a site where people pay their respect to soldiers who died protecting their families and millions of Chinese civilians from invading Japanese forces; forces that committed a countless number of atrocities in Taiwan, China, Korea, and throughout SE Asia. These are undeniable facts, and respect should be paid to these soldiers, regardless of which regime they fought under. Only a true partisan would politicize the Martyr's Shrine.
ReplyDeleteMichael, if you think that any Taiwanese are going to stop and think about this situation, you are going to be disappointed. Don't expect them to get James Soong’s, or Shih's own hypocrisy, or even the fact that under KMT rule in the recent past, none of the protests would even have been allowed! Forget them stopping to think about how the nature of the protests changed from “anti corruption” to “anti Chen” at the speed of light, and English news services are now openly referring to the protests as “anti Chen.” No, this is a case of "monkey see, monkey do" which pretty much covers all aspects of Taiwanese life (smoking cigarettes, chewing binglang and drinking 58 degree Kaoliang just like their ignorant peers). You can bet that there are people wearing red shirts because their parents told them to so do, and they prefer not to argue. Taiwanese society does not reward individualism. But, what really irks me is that apparently no one in the government thinks that the plot to disable the ATM system for the entire country is undeniably a terrorist act. The entire gang of organizers should have been arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit a terrorist act against the nation. A country that doesn’t consider democracy to be important, or even valuable, is not ready for it.
ReplyDelete"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
ReplyDeleteWho said that? I'm sure as hell it wasn't Confucius.... :)
How do you know the protesters met at the landmark because it's a "KMT landmark" and not because it's a convenient and easily recognizable place to meet (hence, landmark)?
ReplyDeleteI don't. You'll have to be the judge.
Also, the Martyr's Shrine is a site where people pay their respect to soldiers who died protecting their families and millions of Chinese civilians from invading Japanese forces; forces that committed a countless number of atrocities in Taiwan, China, Korea, and throughout SE Asia. These are undeniable facts, and respect should be paid to these soldiers, regardless of which regime they fought under.
Quite true. Also an irrelevant emotional appeal.
Only a true partisan would politicize the Martyr's Shrine.
Only the truly naive would imagine that a Martyr's Shrine to soldiers of a colonial regime in a colonial territory isn't political.
Michael
Stop_george:
ReplyDeleteChurchill said it better:
"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time."
老兄
ReplyDelete你的最大的問題就是你認為只要不支持阿扁的就是錯的. 這樣子的話跟國民黨以前的一黨專制又有什麼不同?
我這輩子還沒投票給國民黨. 可是經過阿扁這兩年這樣子搞說真的叫我下次再去支持民進黨我真的很幹. 說什麼也做不下去.
我這輩子還沒投票給國民黨. 可是經過阿扁這兩年這樣子搞說真的叫我下次再去支持民進黨我真的很幹. 說什麼也做不下去.
ReplyDeleteYou're entitled to your opinion, but I will never call for him to step down. If he has done something, I want him impeached, properly. What's going in Taipei is rule by the mob. I've lived in countries where I have gone to bed wondering whether the government will be there in the morning. If you want Taiwan to be like some African nation changing governments every Tuesday, go ahead and support the movement to bring A-Bian down.
Michael
That remembers me that when i was at the Martyr's shrine in Taipei, the japanese tourists outnumbered the rest of the world ten to one. "Oh, did you see that soldier? Doesn't he have a nice butt?"
ReplyDeleteIsn't that ironic?
I think you are reading too much into Roland's blog post. I thought he was blogging about special intrests messing up the american democratic proces. (Or am I missing something?)
You are right when you say "competitive elections are the way to elect the best representative for the legislature", but that is no longer the case if the "competitive election" is being decided by who gets most money from special interests to pay for negative campaigning.
What means pro-china for you?
And "Like many Chinese, ESWN grew up in a society that has no concept of civic culture and rule of law, and thus, when looking at democracy, he is essentially like a tone-deaf man trying to appreciate Mozart"
I thought he has some more bagage than just "china" what ever that means. Oz, US, Latin America, HK (is that china for you?)
Like many Americans, Michael grew up in a society that has no concept of culture, no respect for international laws and where the rich rule and thus, when looking at democracy, he is essentially like a tone-deaf man trying to appreciate Mozart.
Patrick
I think you are reading too much into Roland's blog post. I thought he was blogging about special intrests messing up the american democratic proces. (Or am I missing something?)
ReplyDeleteYes. Go back to the comment about universal suffrage. You might also peruse some of Roland's nastier comments about Taiwan, and his translation of essentially anti-democracy stuff about Taiwan. I think you lack an understanding of the context. Read this.
You are right when you say "competitive elections are the way to elect the best representative for the legislature", but that is no longer the case if the "competitive election" is being decided by who gets most money from special interests to pay for negative campaigning.
I agree. Then the issue isn't universal suffrage, but the fact that competitive elections aren't competitive -- it's not a problem of "democracy" but of particular election processes.
I thought he has some more bagage than just "china" what ever that means. Oz, US, Latin America, HK (is that china for you?)
Yes, I know. Apparently it hasn't rubbed off very well.
Michael
"What is wrong with democracy (as in universal suffrage)?"
ReplyDeleteThat reminds me of this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX5-YUVDgcg&eurl=
Have a look it is funny.
So you think that he means A-bian if he says "ill-suited and ill-equipped"?
Could be... Could also be, lets say Bush or ... Ma after the next elections.
I still think you are over interpreting. Your article you link to mainly reacts to what he translated.
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060219_1.htm
He says: Everybody reads apple so i think it is important to follow. He than gives some translations of articles. You than go and analyse the contents of the translated pieces.
Like this passage:
"Observe further that the author once again uses a rhetorical question -- Or the birth of fascistic democracy?"
Mind, "the author" here is not Roland. I realy feel you go too far to interprete from that that therefore ESWN is "pro-china" (and want to take Taiwan by force tomorrow:-). But than that is just my opinion.
By the way he is a media researcher. It is/was his job to follow this kind of newspapers. I don't find it strange that it will therefore end up on his blog.
He also uses statistics and therefore likes to put up all the polls he can find about Taiwan politics.
Will he have an article about the number of people showing up for the march? Mmmm
Patrick
I agree with Michael that Shih's movement calling CSB to step down lacks constitutional and legal basis, the movement is appealing to the public on moral ground, and his rally largely are pan-blue crowd. However I suspect there is a significant portion of light-green moderate voters whom are fed up with CSB's regime but are yet to be mobilized for various reasons. These moderate voters are crucial to the future of DPP, only in the face of further alienation of these voters would there be a major revolt against CSB within the party.
ReplyDeleteMichael, I read somewhere that during Pan-green's rally yesterday, several reporters/anchors (黃鵬仁 from 中天 and several others) were viciously attacked by mobs in green rally with crowd chanting "kill, kill, kill"
Yes, I heard about the reporters too. Taiwan news (www.etaiwannews.com) reported on it. Lots of people are fed up with the media bias here. The Blue grip on the media is one of their primary sources of power.
ReplyDeleteI think the light greens could be mobilized, but not by Shih, and certainly not by Shih with Soong standing next to him! It would have to be by a figure with his political and moral integrity intact. But the light greens could also be mobilized against Shih too. It just takes the right combination of moral weight and wisdom. But who in Taiwan's politics has that? Shih doesn't represent anything but the lowest common denominator.
Michael
Patrick, I know that Roland didn't write that comment about fascistic democracy. I think you should carefully read the comments that follow that piece.
ReplyDeleteMichael
Not a prominent Green? How about Hsu Hsin-Lang? how do you know not a significant Green in the protest?? Maybe they didn't want to be recognized by the media?!strong biased your oppinion does'nt help the political evolvement in Taiwan.
ReplyDeleteNot a prominent Green? How about Hsu Hsin-Lang? how do you know not a significant Green in the protest?? Maybe they didn't want to be recognized by the media?!strong biased your oppinion does'nt help the political evolvement in Taiwan.
ReplyDeleteWell, being uninformed doesn't help anything. Hsu switched sides almost a decade ago and is now a Blue.
Michael
This is a point David made on Jujuflop, but it makes a lot of sense for people pro-China/Chinese nationalists to support the DPP while the KMT is authoritarian and in power, and after democratization, switch sides and support the KMT within a democratic framework.
ReplyDeletePeople (including the Taiwanese media), have to stop calling Hsu Hsin-Lang former DPP chairman as if it means something. So he's pro-democracy and pro-China--and? This doesn't mean the DPP is so bad that he left; it means the DPP was useful for his purposes and now he wants to unify with China.
>>how do you know not a significant
ReplyDelete>>Green in the protest??
Sure, there was a Ms. Wang.
She nearly got lynched in public for uttering out the word "Taiwan Nation" during her speech, hmm, interesting indeed.