H-ASIADiscuss amongst yourselves.....but as a member of an interracial marriage, I have a hard time seeing it as an act of colonialist oppression.
July 16, 2005
Member in the news: Article in The Times/The Times Higher Education
Supplement
**********
From: "Tobias Hubinette"
The Times
Higher Education Supplement
15 July 2005
Pulled paper sparks row
Jon Buscall Stockholm
Published: 15 July 2005
A doctoral student at Stockholm University's department of Oriental languages claims to have been barred from a conference because of his controversial research, although conference organisers said it was because his paper lacked academic merit.
Tobias Hubinette is being investigated because of his research on interracial marriages and adoption. If the investigation produces substantive evidence, he could face prosecution for reverse racism. Mr Hubinette said: "My department received so many letters of complaint about my research that the university's legal people are examining my work."
Mr Hubinette, Sweden's only doctoral candidate in Korean studies, often criticises media depictions of Asians. His recent denunciation of inherent racism against East Asians in TV commercials led to a pet food advertisement being dropped.
The latest dispute centres on Mr Hubinette's research, which he has published on his personal university web pages. He argues that "what drives (Western man's) fetishism with Asian women is quite simply paedophile tendencies". He also says that interracial marriage and the adoption of East Asian babies are part of a long tradition of colonial oppression.
Hans Aili, head of the department, told the newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: "I see these texts as personal musings rather than scholarly research." After discussing the content with Professor Aili, Mr Hubinette removed the material and links to his own website from the university server.
The external examiner for Mr Hubinette's doctoral thesis, Keun de Ceuster, is a member of the Association for Korean Studies in Europe. Mr Hubinette argues that the association excluded him from its
biennial conference held last week at Sheffield University.
Mr Hubinette said he had a paper accepted for the conference, was given funds to attend but later received a letter from the association's board telling him that he was excluded from the conference on "scholarly grounds". "They did not clarify what their reason was. I think they took this action because of the nature of my work," Mr Hubinette said...
Presentation:
http://www.tobiashubinette.se
[Taiwan]
I see a lot of Western guys in Taichung with Taiwanese girlfriends who have what might be described as a 'prepubescent body type.' One hopes that it's not purely a physical attraction.
ReplyDeleteClyde Said:
ReplyDeleteI think my marriage was a colonialist oppression, but I lost!
Prepubescent body type is merely using western notions of body type...Asians tend to be flatter though this seems to be changing.
ReplyDeletehave you guys ever noticed that the only people who respond to these articles with "well, *i'm* in an interracial relationship and there's no oppression in *my* relationship!" are always white guys? where are the asian women in interracial relationships? why aren't *they* posting "hey, I'm not oppressed!"?
ReplyDeleteThis air-head academic should ride the MRT in Taipei There are a lot of "fatties" these days. Ten years from now -- Taiwan kids will be as fat as American kids. Then the "fat fetish" will be written about. Yawn
ReplyDeleteThis chap is not well know for being moderate, nor is he well known for being a scientist but rather a provoker.
ReplyDeleteThe bloke has got a lot of things wrong and it would be interesting to know who taught him how to interpret statistics.
He also mixes things up when he is afraid that the Korean culture in Sweden will be lost if women adopted from Korea only marry white Swedish men. If he is not a racist (something this bloke says he is not) he should know that you belong to the culture where you were brought up not to the culture where your (biological) ancestors come from.
If he is right that Swedish men adopted from Korea have a harder time finding a spouse than the Swedish women adopted from Korea it is of course sad, but rather reflects how narrow minded Swedish women are than that western men falling in love with Asian women are paedophiles.
Paedophilia? No.
ReplyDeleteFetishizing? Possibly.
Desperation? Definitely.
The western males I've met who actively seek out Asian females almost always fall into one of two categories: they seek someone to control (they want a "maid in the kitchen, whore in the bedroom", or an "asian honey"), or is the type of man who couldn't get a woman at home so he goes where (he thinks) nobody will know what sort of person (loser?) he is. It's not universally true, but it does describe many men I've seen.
The westerners I have seen who have mature relationships with Asian women are the ones who inadvertantly met a person and began a relationship; they did not actively seek or intend to get married to a Chinese, Filipina, or whomever.
Sure, sometimes those who don't seek out Asian women have lust at first sight (I don't consider it "love") and their relationship fails, but it's not due to objectification or ridiculous preconception of them. Such relationships fail for the same reasons as when both people are caucasians.
The advice I have always given people when they move to Asia or any country not their own is not to start dating until they've been there for six months. Why? First, learn how the culture and society really work; people are less likely to get hurt. Second, you're not the first guy to think or try to date or marry the locals where you go; it's more likely that you'll be a spotted and used than you will spot and use a woman. The only naive person is the one who thinks everyone else is.
----have you guys ever noticed that the only people who respond to these articles with "well, *i'm* in an interracial relationship and there's no oppression in *my* relationship!" are always white guys? where are the asian women in interracial relationships? why aren't *they* posting "hey, I'm not oppressed!"?----
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous -
I'm an Asian American woman, and if I may, I will share my thoughts on this matter. ;)
I would say that half of my relationships have been with Caucasian men, the other half Asian American. To be honest, I find Caucasian men to be, on average, more physically attractive than Asian men. I think attractiveness has a lot to do with a mixture of one's own personal preferences and cultural standards, and my attractiveness to Caucasian men is probably just a consequence of growing up in America, watching American TV and movies. I will say, however, that I hope to find someone similar to my background. There is a certain isolation involved being Asian American. Identity is a little confused as the Asian aspect can be, and often times is, very well taught at home, but the American aspect is obviously flourishing everywhere else. For this fusion, at least I believe, it is difficult to feel at home in Asian or American society. This creates a bit of distrust for me with men who are interested in me and not Asian American. With Asian American men, at least I can be more sure of sharing the same sort of enculturation.
Yes, someone with Asian infatuation is one with whom I will develop a relationship, but I think finding a man who is genuine in his interests and also complimenting my character is the more essential, and is an issue with any person.
I said before that I hope to find someone of my own background, but I believe some Asian American women grow up to be a little more independent and a little bit more liberal than Asian American men. Someone said in this blog that some Caucasian men want to find an Asian woman to dominate. This is expected even in Asian culture. And for some Asian American men, especially second generation (those with immigrant parents), they also have a bit of that expectation in being the head of the household. You see, the concern of those with Asian infatuation is the same concern I have even for Asian American, and more so Asian, men.
To talk about a successful interracial relationship, another Asian American woman once explained to me that her Caucasian boyfriend is attracted to our Asian culture. But it wasn't an Asian infatuation. Rather, he admired and respected how strong Asian families are and how deeply parents and children care for one another. My friend then said she also admired and respected his Caucasian family for the more liberal and open approach to life. Neither one is condescending the other. They are appreciating and praising each other.
My conclusion is this:
Asian infatuation of Caucasian men implies some kind of desire for a more subservient woman. As an Asian American woman who respects her own independence, I would obviously want to find someone who respects my role in our partnership equally. If two people fall in love and decide to share their lives together, sometimes it is for stupid reasons like male domination, but sometimes it is for the right reasons like wanting to be with someone to compliment your life, vice versa. (Sorry for the cheeziness... ) But this issue is prevalent with anyone, no? :)
so when a Asian man is attracted to the same legally aged but supposedly in his mind 'looking prepubescent' body what would we make of that. Way too much generalisation isn't there. Even if there is a high degree of Asian porn for Asians directed towards 'school girl' scenarios.
ReplyDeleteI read comments and articles such as this and I so am fundamentally grateful that other people are such experts and hold such worthy opinions on the relatioship I have with my wife and my family.
ReplyDeleteHere is me thinking I fell in love, married and raised children with a wonderful women - whereas all the time I had a pedophile thing going on and just wanted a poorly educated subserviant women inline with my ancestral DNA as a former colonist. Either that or I was desperate so grabbed the nearest looking SE Asian women I could find and jostled her into marriage.
What would I do without the educated opinions of such kind folks as have posted here.
anyone who thinks that asian women are subservient has never been in a relationship with an asian woman!
ReplyDeleteStrong, dedicated, ambitious, intelligent, educated, fun. NOT american. :) (or asian american)
Two points: First the idea that Asian women are all subservient is nonsense and just backward thinking. I am from Chinese family and most are very strong, some even domineering whether they are married to Chinese or White men. They are professional women or they run a business as equal partners with their husband. A few American women who have been in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore have told me they were impressed with how the women were very integrated as executives. It's amazing that with all the business managers, politicians, lawyers, doctors, engineers, and other professional women in Asia, people only think about the mail order brides and prostitutes. Second point: When people can't accept that White men-Asian women relationships can be legitimate relationships between two equal adults, it just shows their prejudices. It seems that they can't accept that it is because the women are attractive, intelligent, and interesting people. No, it has to be for some perverse reason. How disrespectful is that?
ReplyDeleteI suspect Tobias Hubinette probably wasn't successful in attracting Swedish females so he's angry that Swedish men seem to have more success with "his" women.
ReplyDeleteIt suddenly struck me that the reason some Asian women go with the White men is because they feel White men will treat them in a more egalitarian manner than their "own" men would. Of course this perception of White men as less sexist and less oppressive may not be true, but it challenges the view that Asian women go with White men merely because the latter have pedophilic tendencies.
ReplyDeleteJust a question: doesn't anyone think that with female infanticide in China, Filipinas going to work as maids in the Middle East where they're basically treated like Black slavewomen were in the Old South (so much for the so-called solidarity among different "peoples of colour"), Asian women as a whole have more pressing problems than being oppressed by a White husband/boyfriend?
ReplyDeleteI agree with K:
ReplyDelete"The westerners I have seen who have mature relationships with Asian women are the ones who inadvertantly met a person and began a relationship; they did not actively seek or intend to get married to a Chinese, Filipina, or whomever."
It was purely by chance that I found my girlfriend whilst on holidays in China (we are both in our 20's). I was not looking for an 'aisian girlfriend'... it was purely something that happened by chance...we got talking and just clicked.
Of course it helps that I am very interested in learning about Chinese culture and have quite a few friends that are Chinese. But that's besides the point.
I honestly don't understand why people need to point fingers at every guy that dates/marries outside his own nationality. There are so many mixed-race couples these days and I would like to think that this is due to a greater tolerance for other cultures and the simple fact that we live in a multi-cultural society.
Anyway, making ridiculous generalisations about a guy having something wrong with him because he doesn't have a partner from his own race is a backward way of thinking. I resent the racist remarks that Asian women are 'maids and subservient'. I have witnessed Western men talking to their Asian wives like they are dirt but I like to think that they are in the minority.
My SO and I respect each other and have agreed to try to learn about each other's culture to have a better idea of respect and understanding. We try to meet at the half-way point on many things and openly discuss the differences in our thinking.
I've posted above, but I think this whole "debate" on whether Asian women are "oppressed" by White men is a bit like the old debate of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Asian women have more things to worry about than a White man who's watched too many reruns of The World of Suzy Wong. Actually, from one statistic I've seen, Asian women married to White men are more likely to work outside of the home than other women. So so much for the "oppressed" Asian woman.
ReplyDeleteWell I am an Asian women (East Indian), well-educated and independent and certainly not submissive. I did notice that in awestern society men do not tease women and abuse them as much as in my onw home country. It is indeed a relief to feel safe and have my privacy respected. Obviously I would be attracted to a western man because I think that he would treat me as an equal unlike many men (although not all) from my culture. If I end up marrying a man from anywhere in the world, it has to be with someone who respects me as an individual. I certainly envy the western women for having the freedom, space and invidual choice they enjoy.
ReplyDeleteMy wife is Japanese, is that still asian or have they crossed over? Seriously, we met at University in my oppressive colonialistic country and started dating, we met through a mutual friend, as I failed to purchase her at the market. Later I went to Japan after she returned home and continued dating her, we fell in love in Canada and married in Japan. She does not obey me and I am quite certain she is the boss as she does make most of the big plans but I have a voice in all of that as well being the imperialist dog. I always hear that I must be a looser because I married her, couldn't get western women and so on- Honestly though, I lived with several women of my own race, age and nationality before I met her and never had any real problem with them either; though, I did notice not nearly as many disaproving comments then. I did not seek my wife out because she was Japanese or asian just as I did not seek out most of my past lovers because they shared my race. Usually, I went out with the girl who smiled at me, made small talk etc. All the points my parents and friends told me to look for. I think by and large people are fine with my choice of a spouse and I am equally certain people see my wife and I together in public and don't have any problem with us or our children at all but I also know there are some maybe very opinionated and ignorant little souls who will judge us without knowing us. I am not sexually attracted to children nor am I sexually attracted to the grossly overweight, the bald or the elderly. I have never hit my wife or offered her for sell in seedy back streets, I see myself as a 'normal' Canadian guy with a healthy wonderful family whom I truely and deeply love and respect, I am blessed. Quite frankly I am very offended by articles like this one and people who discuss this topic without any personal experience in the subject. It certainly tells me alot about those of you who do though, your sexual hangups, perverse idiologies and neo-nazi adgenda, you see your academic credintials do not hide these things. At our wedding in Japan almost 20 years ago now one of the guests was an elderly german nun who did not hesitate to tell me under her breath that mixed race marriages were against God's will. When I look at my childern I like to think that that old lady is long since past away and I would like to think her small minded dark little world has passed with her but unfortunately it seems it isn't so. I dream of a day though that these people will either be too embarrased to speak openly about their views or that these ideas will just die off, like the theory of the flat earth.
ReplyDeleteGosh, I think it becomes seriously problematic, the misunderstandings about interracial long-term relationships (common-law) and marriage.
ReplyDeleteHowever I think it is very important that each person enters into the relationship with a secure, strong sense of respect of themselves first and walking a path to develop themselves with or WITHOUT that other person in life.
If a Caucasian guy is looking for a subservient "Asian" woman or perceives them to be, watch out! That has got to be the biggest myth of all.
From an Canadian-born Asian with her German-Canadian male paramour..of nearly 20 yrs.
I'm a European male living in Taiwan, and in the same way that I am attracted toward making friends with Taiwanese people, I am also attracted to Taiwanese women, not exclusively, but as they make up 99 percent of the population it would be hard to rule them out. Not all Taiwanese women though - I am not at all attracted to those who put on baby like voices, walk with a gait that looks like they haven't yet gotten used to having an adult body, and generally feign helplessness (acts which I'm told help them attract Taiwanese guys). I'm attracted to women with strong personalities and high self-esteem.
ReplyDeleteConversely, there is plenty of fodder for the above researcher to examine in the fact that Western female models tend to look like they are 15.
I'm also a grad student of cultural history, and I find it pretty amazing that the above theory could pass even the most basic of peer reviews. It's so wonderfully simplistic that it belongs alongside the "tall buildings are designed by male architects to look like a phallus," theory. No.. in areas of high populations density, they make use of a small footprint while still allowing a large area of living / work space. It's also from the old and boring school of thought that says that oppression is only applied from West to East or from European to Non-Europeans. Seriously, the guy should get out and see the world!
I guess his theory never did make it and that's why I read about it here and not in an academic journal.