tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post5967924406174240509..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: China voice says break up IndiaMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-53410483770719919732009-09-02T03:19:31.119+08:002009-09-02T03:19:31.119+08:00I think the author has lack history knowledge and ...I think the author has lack history knowledge and will need some common language to understand it not the shinese versions. The very basic what connects so many indians together is they know what cost they have paid for independence. BTW india is home to most diverse races in world.Vijayendra Sumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11923315910503366336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-6500661738289128282009-08-19T03:17:34.555+08:002009-08-19T03:17:34.555+08:00I actually feel that here in the US, I get far mor...I actually feel that here in the US, I get far more western press coverage on China's human rights incidents than on India's. I suppose it's much easier, since communication and infrastructure in China are much more established. Oh, and maybe it's easier to say something nasty when the country is "Communist."channinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06386334271601532591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-17616886047002390332009-08-14T05:18:37.630+08:002009-08-14T05:18:37.630+08:00i think China should let Tibet and East Turkesdtan...i think China should let Tibet and East Turkesdtan freen then it have not to care about Indian borders. so can China do with Machuria and mongolia. nothing to care about Russians and wester forces fighting in Korea. thats is a very "harmonical and traditional what chinese... well almost that what chinese claim to love to call their "tradition".naked arse in harmonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-74703530582521077172009-08-14T02:10:23.299+08:002009-08-14T02:10:23.299+08:00Been blogging now for years, and administrated and...<i>Been blogging now for years, and administrated and moderated groups for years before that. Seen so many fakes and frauds that my hackles go right up...</i><br /><br />I did think about that. From our perspective this blog is 95% high-class with very little foul language. From your perspective, it could be that 50% of the comments that come in contain foul language and hateful insults. It can be tough to keep your own language pure when it seems everyone around you is cussing.<br /><br />For the work you do in moderating you have both my sympathy and my appreciation.Readinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-48089142066479337472009-08-13T20:29:19.152+08:002009-08-13T20:29:19.152+08:00I will, SM, and you just keep repeating those KMT ...I will, SM, and you just keep repeating those KMT and PRC talking points.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36561149710357780682009-08-13T17:20:05.700+08:002009-08-13T17:20:05.700+08:00@ Michael. I will, in a very civilised manner, agr...@ Michael. I will, in a very civilised manner, agree to disagree. <br /><br />As for: "I love dumbshit pro-China posters," - your rage is understandable. Stay classy, Mr Turton. <br /><br />Yours, <br /><br /> SMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-88318508503669795942009-08-13T11:38:30.240+08:002009-08-13T11:38:30.240+08:00Wow dumbass Anon,
I am glad you took the time to ...Wow dumbass Anon,<br /><br />I am glad you took the time to read, analyze and criticize the theory of "imagined communities". I just hope your source, "Arnold", has written as great a book on the theory as Benedict Anderson. <br /><br />Maybe the two authors could put together a synthesis pertaining to the current situation under the Ma administration, and they could call it, "Benedict Arnold's Imagined Community".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-57767550445963474402009-08-13T11:02:14.409+08:002009-08-13T11:02:14.409+08:00Some of the rights violations get press but my no ...Some of the rights violations get press but my no means all. Extra-judicial killings, elected officials involved in kidnapping, murder and extortion, human trafficking, infanticide, "eve" teasing, lack of legal rights for accused etc are very much under reported in the media. In these areas (and it doesn't really get much more serious than murder), there's not much difference between the two.<br /><br />That said, I am in the midst of planning my 4th trip there :)Craig Ferguson (@cfimages)http://www.craigfergusonimages.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-31345206002523072782009-08-13T10:07:47.360+08:002009-08-13T10:07:47.360+08:00Oooh, just popped up in my news feed: Google Maps ...Oooh, just popped up in my news feed: Google Maps <a href="China-India%20data%20error%20explained" rel="nofollow">http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2009/08/china-india-data-error-explained.html</a><br /><br /><i>we inadvertently added Chinese language names to some locations in Arunachal Pradesh that were previously unlabeled or labeled with English language Indian place names.</i><br />Oops?!Robert R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12956389352825464115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-29938466579228684122009-08-13T09:37:25.642+08:002009-08-13T09:37:25.642+08:00"3. I have never said that the Taiwanese aren..."3. I have never said that the Taiwanese aren't Chinese in culture -- quite the opposition, on numerous occasions in response to the de-sinification talking point, I've affirmed the close connection -- and to claim that the DPP wants to renounce its Chinese roots is a KMT talking point. Stop proving my comment that you can't read."<br /><br />I would actually question that Taiwanese are Chinese. I think transmission theory and cultural theory could demonstrate a strong case that they are culturally different, but I would like to see it proven that they are the same. Indulge me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-12891306223218298002009-08-13T09:33:26.649+08:002009-08-13T09:33:26.649+08:00One problem India does have is with its human righ...<b>One problem India does have is with its human rights record. Things are slowly improving, but by-and-large, once you get away from the more modern areas, a lot of very shocking human rights violations take place on a daily basis (some of which I've personally witnessed). Unfortunately, a lot of this is overlooked because India is a democracy - if it weren't the western media and govts would probably focus some more attention on this.</b><br /><br />I am aware of the human rights issues in India, Craig. They get plenty of western press. But they pale beside those of the PRC.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-41486726242151269592009-08-13T09:31:40.821+08:002009-08-13T09:31:40.821+08:00Readin + SM:
Been blogging now for years, and adm...Readin + SM:<br /><br />Been blogging now for years, and administrated and moderated groups for years before that. Seen so many fakes and frauds that my hackles go right up...<br /><br />Putting pro-PRC stuff like that in a comment here is trolling. Period. It's been my bitter experience that anyone who posts here starting "I am not Blue or Green but...." you know the post is going to be anti-Green and the poster is a closet Blue. If someone starts here "I don't like the PRC but [isn't the PRC glorious!!!]" I am almost always listening to a pro-PRC voice in masquerade.<br /><br />SM's comment about the CCP raising incomes is the kind of unthinking pro-Establishment crap I particularly despise. Not only is it completely wrong, but it serves the PRC. <br /><br />I don't know what it is about China that short-circuits the critical thinking faculties of the people who observe it -- money? size? power? but it serves China well.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-74667064538873983092009-08-13T09:20:59.326+08:002009-08-13T09:20:59.326+08:00The original article (well, English translation of...The original article (well, English translation of) has a number of fundamental, basic errors about India in it. Really, the writing quality is on par with a China Post or Taipei Times article. When the basic facts are wrong, it's hard to make any meaningful observations.<br /><br />One problem India does have is with its human rights record. Things are slowly improving, but by-and-large, once you get away from the more modern areas, a lot of very shocking human rights violations take place on a daily basis (some of which I've personally witnessed). Unfortunately, a lot of this is overlooked because India is a democracy - if it weren't the western media and govts would probably focus some more attention on this.Craig Ferguson (@cfimages)http://www.craigfergusonimages.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-72787191712955167952009-08-13T07:21:58.700+08:002009-08-13T07:21:58.700+08:00"Your use of ad hominem commentary to reply t..."Your use of ad hominem commentary to reply to me, however, is disappointing."<br /><br />In the spirit of tough love, let me second that. Most of the time when temper and ridicule make the source loot worse than the target.<br /><br />The post was not obviously pro-China. It could have as easily come from an objective point-of-view as from a reflexive pro-China point-of-view. It observed the similarity of attempts to undermine the Chinese empire and attempts to undermine the Indian conglomeration. It's true that it ignored the hypocrisy of China of preaching one thing at home an another abroad, but in this context one would expect most readers to already know that, so it didn't need to be pointed out.<br /><br />This isn't the first time I've been disappointed in one of Michael Turton's responses. But at least he prints the criticisms. Were he so inclined he could just not print them, but that would be the equivalent of what right-wing radio hosts on the US do when they confront a caller they can't handle and hang up, and I know Michael Turton is no fan of right-wing radio hosts.Readinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-20735179334554247582009-08-13T06:48:04.508+08:002009-08-13T06:48:04.508+08:00Jing, thanks for the comments and the links. Lots ...Jing, thanks for the comments and the links. Lots of Indians sent this to me, and you are right, it does say something about India, but also about way many in China see things.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-32359445321586697332009-08-13T06:42:57.390+08:002009-08-13T06:42:57.390+08:00SM:
1. Never claimed Taiwan was "preparing t...SM:<br /><br />1. Never claimed Taiwan was "preparing to declare independence" in the wake of Kosovo. That's totally asinine. Stop proving my comment that you can't read.<br /><br />2. I have on numerous occasions deplored Taiwanese ethnic nationalism, in fact in stuff quoted in overseas publications. The idea that I embrace Taiwanese ethnic nationalism is a rather ugly talking point. Stop proving my comment you can't read.<br /><br />3. I have never said that the Taiwanese aren't Chinese in culture -- quite the opposition, on numerous occasions in response to the de-sinification talking point, I've affirmed the close connection -- and to claim that the DPP wants to renounce its Chinese roots is a KMT talking point. Stop proving my comment that you can't read.<br /><br />4. You claim: <i>Had you bothered to read my post carefully, you would have found that I am in no way, shape or form pro-China. I merely seek to give credit where credit is due based on a dispassionate statement of verifiable fact.</i><br /><br />But you said earlier:<br /><br /><b>My only concern is that for all the CCP's faults it has somehow, despite the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution etc. achieved a standard of living and quality of life far superior to India's [according to statistics from the Economist, China's per capita GDP is roughly 300% of 'free, democratic' India's]. I'm no friend of the CCP, but I am even less well disposed towards India.</b><br /><br />You "dispassionately" say that China's quality of life exceeds India's. Perhaps, unless you worship God, belong to the Falungong, or want to criticize the Party, etc. Quality of life is a value, not a fact. Asserting that you "dispassionately" state values is basically assuming the mantle of facticity to hack on the values of others, in this case to take a pro-China position. Such rhetorical games you play! <br /><br />The CCP beggared China for decades, killing millions. Suddenly they open up, and the full power of the Chinese people comes into play, and China becomes wealthier, and this is to the credit of the CCP? That it finally chose to do what other nations did routinely -- let their people run their own businesses? I swoon at the awesome economic management skills of the CCP. What will they think of next?<br /><br />We won't even get into the whole US-driven East Asia supply chain/developmentalist state political economy that made China rich, whose development the CCP had nothing to do with.<br /><br />I always put up genuine criticism, since it is usually warranted. But I don't let pro-PRC types post here without commentary on how morally ugly and historically uninformed they are. <br /><br />Your initial post was totally pro-PRC, in all its aspects. There's no moral or political equivalence between opposing PRC colonialism and expansionism in Xinjiang, Tibet, and elsewhere, and wishing that India might be broken up. The colonialist and his victims, existing and planned, are never equivalent. The (legitimating) implication that they are, a vast moral and political failure, was what triggered my response. <br /><br />Which, as your subsequent claims have amply proved, was dead-on. <br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-4051994971515391512009-08-13T01:58:25.190+08:002009-08-13T01:58:25.190+08:00You're Chinese literate aren't you Turton?...You're Chinese literate aren't you Turton? The original "article" that the Indian "scholar" and I use this the scare quotes with maximal contempt here translated is available for your own perusal. <br /><br />http://club.mil.news.sina.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=42950&extra=&page=1<br /><br />The first post is the so-called "authoritative" article by a guy writing under a nickname who apparently works for the China Institute of Strategic Studies (or maybe not http://m.timesofindia.com/PDATOI/articleshow/4886609.cms)<br /><br />As far as sky is falling Indian self-flagellations is concerned, this is a mere 6 out of 10, at least compared to the mother of all make believe threats that is the Great Cocos Island disappearing, never existing Chinese spy base.<br /><br />In reality, this whole episode reflects more about the Indians than it does the Chinese. That some random scribbling by a netizen is mis-interpreted as some sort of official government sanctioned white paper (afterall if its not deleted, it must be government sponsored!) shows just how incompetent India's so-called strategic thinkers are. The responses so far are more illuminating of Indian insecurity and concern vis-a-vis China than the other way around.Jingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-66560450956602175192009-08-13T01:42:13.938+08:002009-08-13T01:42:13.938+08:00That's quite enough, Michael. Although I suspe...That's quite enough, Michael. Although I suspect that you will not publish this comment, allow me to say that you are a distinctly crude man, who does the Taiwanese cause little, if any good. Had you bothered to read my post carefully, you would have found that I am in no way, shape or form pro-China. I merely seek to give credit where credit is due based on a dispassionate statement of verifiable fact. Your use of ad hominem commentary to reply to me, however, is disappointing.<br /><br />As a brief clarification, I wrote "imagined conception" not as Arnold's imagined communities (which you fail to appreciate is a primarily national, rather than statist question) but rather as the CCP's fixation with the geographical extent of the PRC. In this respect, geography and the imagined form of the state trumps nationality and, consequently, it would be inappropriate to invoke the "imagined community" paradigm. <br /><br />Finally, Mr Turton, although I support the Taiwanese right to self-determination, I do not subscribe to the absurd rhetoric that the Taiwanese are a rather quixotic chimera of Austronesian and Japanese people wherein any Chinese (or Min, if you must) ethnic influence is incidental. I have spent much time researching separatist movements in, inter alia, Italy and Spain and found that most revolve around frankly deluded ethnic entrepreneurs like some fringe elements of the DPP. <br /><br />Of course, I don't expect you to agree with me, but for the sake of argument, I am curious to know why you have taken up the spurious cause of Taiwanese ethnic exceptionalism. Are the Taiwanese so desperate that they cannot consolidate a sovereign, independent state without having to renounce their Chinese roots first? Is being a Chinaman so bad? <br /><br />Canada is a free and independent state, yet one that embraces its Anglo-Saxon heritage. Ditto Austria and Germany. <br /><br />Yes, Mr Turton, I am sympathetic to your cause, but the vulgarity with which you chose to hit back is something I resent. It also suggests a rather dogmatic mindset. As if the CCP could never and under no circumstances do anything decent, respectable of praiseworthy. This sort of extremism is bound to kill the prospects of Taiwanese independence. Time, ceteris paribus, is not in your favour and further entrenchment can only result in further disappointment. <br /><br />Oh, and remember, by the way, when you claimed in the summer of 2008 that Taiwan was preparing to declare independence in the wake of Kosovo? I only hope your skills as a polemicist exceed your capabilities as a political analyst. <br /><br />All the best, <br /><br /> SM (doberfuhr@hotmail.com - in the unlikely case you may wish to reply)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-67217854069252914272009-08-13T00:45:27.567+08:002009-08-13T00:45:27.567+08:00I guess all that stuff about other countries not i...I guess all that stuff about other countries not interfering in China's "<a href="http://www.google.com/intl/en/#hl=en&safe=off&q=interfere+%22China%27s+internal+affairs%22&fp=OvTU_eADNzY" title="Google search-[interfere ''China's internal affairs'']" rel="nofollow">internal affairs</a>" should be considered no longer applicable?<br /><br />Party time!<br /><br /><a href="http://taiwanmatters.blogspot.com/" title="Taiwan Matters!" rel="nofollow">Tim Maddog</a>Tim Maddoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16943522529132663780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-28627263218883047292009-08-12T23:29:59.070+08:002009-08-12T23:29:59.070+08:00I suppose what's sauce for the goose is sauce ...<b>I suppose what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - the editorial line of this blog is dedicated towards undermining the CCP's imagined conception of the Chinese state, so perhaps the Chinese can legitimately hope to undermine the imagined communities of others.</b><br /><br />I love dumbshit pro-China posters, who can't even read English properly. It's the not the CCP's imagined state I object to, it's the very real authoritarianism and expansionism of it into non-Chinese places. I don't much care one way or another how the Chinese arrange themselves internally, I just want them to stop annexing the nations around them and murdering their people. <br /><br />We're not even going to get into the way you've bastardized the term "imagined community."<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-22704552814996750462009-08-12T21:39:08.131+08:002009-08-12T21:39:08.131+08:00Of course China wants to destabilize India. As th...Of course China wants to destabilize India. As the US and Europe battle away in Afghanistan, and neutralize Pakistan (and Iran may be next), China's back door, and its expansionist plans for Central Asia are potentially at risk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-38779308266295089062009-08-12T17:39:02.384+08:002009-08-12T17:39:02.384+08:00the 'so-called' Indian nation cannot be co...<i>the 'so-called' Indian nation cannot be considered as one having existed in history.</i><br /><br />I believe the Chinese theory of "existed in history" is anything before 1895 [not inclusive]. Otherwise it didn't happen.Robert R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12956389352825464115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-73921727056199780892009-08-12T17:00:21.717+08:002009-08-12T17:00:21.717+08:00I suppose what's sauce for the goose is sauce ...I suppose what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - the editorial line of this blog is dedicated towards undermining the CCP's imagined conception of the Chinese state, so perhaps the Chinese can legitimately hope to undermine the imagined communities of others.<br /><br />My only concern is that for all the CCP's faults it has somehow, despite the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution etc. achieved a standard of living and quality of life far superior to India's [according to statistics from the Economist, China's per capita GDP is roughly 300% of 'free, democratic' India's]. I'm no friend of the CCP, but I am even less well disposed towards India.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-91631670474716917672009-08-12T16:45:06.165+08:002009-08-12T16:45:06.165+08:00I am SO rooting for India. Indian success would bo...I am SO rooting for India. Indian success would boil China on so many levels, especially to be bested by "dark races". <br /><br />Go India!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com