tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post5482581676462013562..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: Taiwanese Doctors, Chinese Organ HarvestingMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-42077888778937309922009-03-04T20:49:00.000+08:002009-03-04T20:49:00.000+08:00Two years ago, a groundbreaking investigative repo...Two years ago, a groundbreaking investigative report by two high-profile Canadian lawyers raised the horrific possibility that tens of thousands of prisoners of conscience in China were being killed so their organs could be sold in lucrative transplant deals. To date China's communist government has done little to dispute the report's findings, evidence of its accuracy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-84737303500405803082008-12-18T10:57:00.000+08:002008-12-18T10:57:00.000+08:00I, for one, am not buying anything that was made i...I, for one, am not buying anything that was made in China and I'm making sure the stores know it. I may be just one person, but I believe I can make a difference -- one store, one conversation, one email at a time... <BR/><BR/>Each of us has this responsibility to humanity. Let's live up to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-41060307449744776882008-12-01T10:29:00.000+08:002008-12-01T10:29:00.000+08:00List the names of the doctors you know. These are ...List the names of the doctors you know. These are serious accusations, if you are really against it, act.<BR/><BR/>What gives Taiwanese doctors the right to abuse Chinese people this way?<BR/><BR/>If you have facts, names, then you can publish them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-91624713851613734002008-12-01T08:55:00.000+08:002008-12-01T08:55:00.000+08:00Michael, Beagle (yes we've crossed path elsewh...Michael, Beagle (yes we've crossed path elsewhere), Falun Gong's organ allegation David Kilgour and David Matas are promoting, has long been discredited.<BR/><BR/>- Most recently by the Ottawa Citizen: <BR/><BR/>http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=2c15d2f0-f0ab-4da9-991a-23e4094de949&p=3<BR/><BR/>- Undercover investigation by US State Dept: <BR/><BR/>http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html<BR/><BR/>http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7) <BR/><BR/>- Undercover investigation by Chinese dissidnet Harry Wu: <BR/><BR/>http://www.cicus.org/info_eng/artshow.asp?ID=6491 <BR/><BR/>http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/><BR/>Charles Liu<BR/>Community Activist<BR/>Seattle, WAbobby fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988368193662201410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-20302907313538130302008-11-29T19:50:00.000+08:002008-11-29T19:50:00.000+08:00murder is murder and when it is done by state it i...murder is murder and when it is done by state it is legal murder.<BR/><BR/>should any government condone it is morally wrong no matter where.<BR/><BR/>government is by the people, for the people...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-83353750637016915222008-11-29T19:10:00.000+08:002008-11-29T19:10:00.000+08:00Thomas, I agree with you in regard to public attit...Thomas, I agree with you in regard to public attitudes toward the Falun Gong, and I confess that when I put up my comment above, I had not noticed that the telephone transcripts in the Canadian MPs’ report were not the work of their own staff but of FG investigators. So the objectivity and truth of evidence with regard to the FG is of course open to serious question.<BR/>But isn’t all of that, including whether the story of a concentration-camp organ-farm at Sujiatan is true, irrelevant with regard to whether or not extra-judicial murder is being committed on a mass scale? And to whether or not donor consent is truly voluntary? Focusing on truth or fabrication with regard to Falun Gong claims is a red herring if the goal is to reduce the extra-judicial murder and the violation of human rights (involuntary donation) that is occurring with judicially executed persons.<BR/>Maybe my definition doesn’t match official jargon, but I’m calling executions beyond the number China officially announces extra-judicial murder. And one need only look at transplant-patient waiting times to realize that such murder not only is happening on a very large scale, but that it’s specifically attuned to serving transplant entrepreneurism. <BR/>(http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report0701/report20070131.htm#_Toc160145119)<BR/>There are effective ways to mostly end the stream of international customers to China, and these ways don’t require the approval and help of the U.S. state department or any of the rest of the incoming Obama administration. They require rather that (a) pressure be put on medical societies to establish stringent and clear ethics policies for transplant-patient referrals to China and for collaboration on research with Chinese medical researchers, and, if necessary (b) that individual legislatures or else extraterritorial agreement (as with pedophile sex tourism) strengthen these policies with the force of law. As the Canadian MPs’ report makes evident, stringent and clear ethics policies do not currently exist (http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report0701/report20070131.htm#_Toc160145123), so I agreed with Peter’s point above that the biggest problem is that the public shies away from knowing about atrocities until they are common knowledge – that the real problem is making these crimes common knowledge.<BR/><BR/>I cannot imagine that this would be so difficult, though – if the Falun Gong claims are viewed as a side issue and if waiting times, announced numbers of transplants, official Chinese figures on executions, lack of verified donor consent, and loose medical-society transplant-related ethics with regard to China are placed squarely in the spotlight. I think that given wider public knowledge of these things, the U.S. Congress would act and so would many other nation’s legislatures and health ministries, separately or in concert, if necessary --- if medial societies themselves don’t take the initiative to do enough on their own to curb non-Chinese involvement in these crimes against humanity.<BR/><BR/>But if you feel I’m missing something in thinking this angle and approach would be effective, please tell me, because I’m certainly not interested in winning any arguments here. I’d simply like to figure out what measures can be taken to reduce the slaughter. And if there are none currently available, then there are none. But so far, this still looks to me like an approach that is likely to be effective. Am I missing or misjudging some things?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-89602091059393167152008-11-28T10:55:00.000+08:002008-11-28T10:55:00.000+08:00The issue, Vin, is that this involves the Falun Go...The issue, Vin, is that this involves the Falun Gong. You are right that no nation should have a problem enacting the legislation you suggest. But a consensus needs to be built in the nation on a topic that China screams about as a national security issue. The problem has to be so evident that everyone accepts it as a fact and clamours for something to be done. The problem is that the Falun Gong is an interested party with its own history of exaggerating the truth. Therefore, it is too easy to dismiss them without doing research to verify their claims. And the moment such research begins, the Chinese will begin to hew and hollar. <BR/><BR/>I wonder sometimes when the point will come that the rest of the world will get tired of shrill Chinese complaints.Tommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552370490869601403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-30625113901750512812008-11-28T03:32:00.000+08:002008-11-28T03:32:00.000+08:00The article and the report linked to in the post a...The article and the report linked to in the post are among the most disturbing things I’ve ever read. Sure, it’s not Rwanda or the Holocaust, but this is class-based predation that goes beyond even slavery. No matter that many Falun practitioners are themselves middle-class: it’s the buying-power of rich Chinese and middle-and-upper-class Westerners and East Asians that permit this to happen.<BR/><BR/>But is there really nothing that can be done? While what goes on in China between Chinese is beyond international control, why would it be so difficult, politically, to almost entirely shut off the flow of customers from Taiwan, the U.S., and just about any other nation, too? What large economic interests would seek to prevent passage of a law that forbids own-national doctors from assisting patients in obtaining transplants in China until such time as China might establish a donor-consent procedure that is transparent and verifiable by an international agency that is allowed real investigative wherewithal? How many customers, Taiwanese, American, or of any other nationality, and how many families of customers, would be willing to navigate the usually-extortionate and often shoddy Chinese medical system without having in the background an own-doctor to whom Chinese doctors and administrators feel accountable?<BR/><BR/>It’s ironic that China’s government and so many of her people keep calling the Japanese out for their barbaric medical experiments on Chinese during World War II when the government itself is now doing the same things to some of its own citizens. Remove the customer security that the own-physician provides China’s foreign customers; the cannibalism will then be reduced and China will be left to stand in further high-profile shame as a nation that has found yet another way to engage in barbarous, pre-Pleistocene behavior.<BR/><BR/>Maybe foreign customers (especially Taiwanese) don’t rely on own-doctors as much as I suppose, but I would not despair, Peter. Gutmann’s forthcoming book will help, I’m sure. Until I read the article and the report, I kept what little I knew of the Falun stories filed away in my mind as likely true but probably much exaggerated – and therefore fodder for half-hearted, not-very-funny jokes. And the same as I’m now not shying away from this despairing news, I think many others will not shy away either – probably simply because there’s a somatic reaction to the idea of with having organs removed; one does not have to will oneself to visualize the atrocities as with Darfur and so many other cases. <BR/><BR/>I think legislatures in many nations will eventually be willing to act and force legislation, no matter what state departments, foreign ministries and heads of government might wish; and I don’t think even Americans would be able to find a way to make this issue partisan. Further, I don’t think even China is capable of twisting logic enough to try to make a case that other countries’ laws for their own physicians and citizens on an issue like this constitutes “interference in China’s internal affairs.” About all they could do is cry unfair trade practices.<BR/><BR/>Imagine: China taking this issue to the WTO.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-71825384880239324272008-11-27T22:19:00.000+08:002008-11-27T22:19:00.000+08:00Thanks Peter. I found Kilgour and Matas totally co...Thanks Peter. I found Kilgour and Matas totally convincing as well. Thomas, commenting above, is right. The US government must know, and yet doesn't speak.<BR/><BR/>Sad.<BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-9075058922272005662008-11-27T20:41:00.000+08:002008-11-27T20:41:00.000+08:00Hi Michael. Nice to see you posted about this. I'm...Hi Michael. Nice to see you posted about this. I'm too busy to read your blog much, though I used to read it a lot more often in the past. I barely ever even post on Forumosa anymore. <BR/><BR/>I have a Google Alert on the tags 'organ harvesting' and 'kilgour.' It picked up your entry here.<BR/><BR/>I've been concerned about this issue for years now. It really bugs me that humans have a sad tenedency to shy away from anything that smells like an atrocity. This is why crimes against humanity happen I think - because most people will refuse to believe it until it becomes "common knowledge." It makes for hard work by those who refuse to listen to fear more closely than to logic and rational analysis.<BR/><BR/>I find the conclusions of the Kilgour Matas report to be almost entirely convincing. And I HAVE read all the strongest rebuttals to it that I can find. <BR/><BR/>Keep up the good work.<BR/><BR/>-Peter Dearmandearpeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05143396326908194986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-26393590477325703172008-11-26T23:49:00.000+08:002008-11-26T23:49:00.000+08:00"brought to the attention of the highest levels of..."brought to the attention of the highest levels of the State Department and the incoming Obama Administration"<BR/><BR/>Remember that the holocaust was known about or at least suspected by US intelligence before the US entered the war.<BR/><BR/>My guess is that the State Department is well aware of this. And Obama will be too, but he will do nothing about it. Too many people have sold their souls for <BR/> the money and the political cooperation of the Chinese state, which is why I am so pessimistic about Taiwan's prospects. <BR/><BR/>Tragic, but nobody in power wants to do anything about it.Tommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552370490869601403noreply@blogger.com