tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post4605200547026449330..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: Taiwan the ToddlerMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-32285154294789793892008-03-04T09:34:00.000+08:002008-03-04T09:34:00.000+08:00First,the tone in this article was clearly unfair ...First,the tone in this article was clearly unfair and it would be a only right to call the writer to account but the referendum is dangerously foolish.The world doesn't need to be told that the majority of people on the island want international recognition.Anyone who cares already knows and most of the world doesn't care.Taiwan's very survival as a defacto independent state is at risk and the referendum simply increases that risk.There are possible solutions to the PRC threat but none as simple,cheap and easy as this DPP idea.Taiwan can't afford the luxury of foolishness.poihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16990858429987456510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-88594066172845165102007-11-27T02:43:00.000+08:002007-11-27T02:43:00.000+08:00So, did you ever hear back from them? If not, make...So, did you ever hear back from them? If not, make sure you let us know if you do.coreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10014867312619338988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-71867162380032488462007-09-22T22:00:00.000+08:002007-09-22T22:00:00.000+08:00Mark,>>>>>>>>>>>>>>According to the article, Chen ...Mark,<BR/><BR/>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR/>According to the article, Chen said that the referendum didn't have anything to do with politics. Do you think this is true? Do you think he thinks it's true?<BR/><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<BR/><BR/>I don't really care about that. What I care is if he did what his supporters want him to do. <BR/><BR/>His power came from pan-green supports, as such he is obligatory to carry out pan-green's expectations. <BR/><BR/>In his first term he didn't do that. Instead it seemed that he listened more to the pan-blue. It made pan-green go crazy -- He is not supposed to take power from pan-green with one hand, and use that power to help pan-blue carry out their missions with the other hand. <BR/><BR/>We later came to realize that, Chen was in the center of crashes -- domestically pan-green, pan-blue and pan-nothing all want to force him to go their sides (some followed no rule at all), and internationally China and USA are playing him like a chess piece. He has been in the center of all hurricanes and if he wasn't so snaky he would have been broken long time ago. If that happened, the emotional responses of his supporters and the looting nature of never-admit-loss pan-blue will come to a crash point and Taiwan will not be as stable as it is now.<BR/><BR/>In that sense he did what is needed in the situation he is in. As I mentioned in previous comment, when the situation is clear and one side of the tugging forces emerges, he will not play snaky anymore. He is probably the only person in Taiwan politics who is smart enough and "personality-fit" enough to deal with this situation. Any one else would probably stand strong with one tugging force and steer Taiwan into diasters.<BR/><BR/>So, what's wrong with the policy making of "using Taiwan" without referendum? It's what pan-green -- the people who gave him power -- always wanted, and in pan-green's eyes he should have done it years ago. <BR/><BR/>Understand what situation he has been enduring, it really makes no sense to judge him on his personality. If I were to vote for a President, I vote for a candidate who can carry out my idea, but not for a candidate who is a nice person.<BR/> <BR/>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR/>it's clear that I consider it a meaningless poll (in terms of policy)<BR/><<<<<<<<<<<<<BR/><BR/>I already mentioned that the referendum will tell people his policy is not just what he or DPP want but is the majority of Taiwanese want. It gives him a solid support for his policy. In that sense I wouldn't say it's meaningless in terms of policy.Runsunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00943096071902196841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-9526779004941308782007-09-22T01:05:00.000+08:002007-09-22T01:05:00.000+08:00Nope, that one was fine.Now that it's clear that I...Nope, that one was fine.<BR/><BR/>Now that it's clear that I consider it a meaningless poll (in terms of policy), and that you consider it meaningful (in terms of sending a message), lets talk about what I labeled "disingenuous".<BR/><BR/>According to the article, Chen said that the referendum didn't have anything to do with politics. Do you think this is true? Do you think <I>he</I> thinks it's true?Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652288045145591799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-9049629054923737432007-09-21T14:03:00.000+08:002007-09-21T14:03:00.000+08:00mark,I'm sorry that you find my comment offensive....mark,<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry that you find my comment offensive. But I do feel that your comment of "meaningless referendum", like:<BR/><BR/>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR/>The referendum is meaningless in a policy sense-- regardless of the vote, the administration plans to use the name "Taiwan".<BR/><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<BR/><BR/>is baseless. The main purpose of referendum is to <B>let the international community know</B> that "Entering the UN in the name of Taiwan" is supported by the <B>majority of Taiwanese</B>. You are right that Chen's government is gonna use "Taiwan" anyway. But, <B>the fact that "Chen Administration uses Taiwan" doesn't tell the world anything about how the majority of Taiwanese think. Only a referendum can achieve that goal.</B> This is also a way to show the world that Chen is doing what people want, but not just what he or DPP want. <BR/><BR/>Therefore, a UN referendum does have its meaning, and a very significant one.<BR/><BR/>In fact, Chen are not stupid or mad as many people would like to believe. He won't do things that he has no confidence on, and his confidence is built not on his emotion or greed or ambition, but on internal polls conducted by DPP frequently. This is his style of administrating a government, started even since he was Taipei Mayor. <BR/><BR/>We saw him swing back and forth and back and forth, seems like he was snaky and don't know where to go. In fact it's his response to DPP's internal polls when the polls were unable to show a definite majority. When he sees that a majority is shown, he will go straight to that direction -- even spanking USA on the face -- like we all are seeing now.<BR/><BR/>So thinking he simply acts on emotion or rushes to do things that is meaningless is really ignorant to the way he operates.<BR/><BR/>Don't forget that Chen and his party are experts in fighting political combats. They certainly know what is meaningful and what is not better than we do.<BR/><BR/>This is just about the original meaning of the referendum. I haven't talked about the impact the referendum actually stirred yet.<BR/><BR/>If you try to put your own idea aside to consider the possibility that these might all be Chen's strategy, you might be able to see its meaning.<BR/><BR/>If you still find this post offensive, let me know. I'll stop talking.Runsunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00943096071902196841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-26688446309636864752007-09-21T06:37:00.000+08:002007-09-21T06:37:00.000+08:00Rusun said:You are contradicting yourself. If in y...Rusun said:<BR/><B><I>You are contradicting yourself. If in your mind the referendum can mobilize Chen's base, how can you describe it as "meaningless"?<BR/><BR/>Talking about "disingenuous" ...</I></B><BR/><BR/>Runsun, don't call me disingenuous. I have no ulterior motives, and I find your response offensive.<BR/><BR/>You missed what I was saying. I didn't contradict myself at all.<BR/><BR/>The referendum is meaningless in a policy sense-- regardless of the vote, the administration plans to use the name "Taiwan".<BR/><BR/>However, the referendum <I>is</I> something that will whip up the green base, especially since it's going to be held at the same time as the presidential elections.<BR/><BR/>Is that clear enough for you?Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652288045145591799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-120263297391861542007-09-20T11:01:00.000+08:002007-09-20T11:01:00.000+08:00Anon--and we all know that blue sandals and straw ...Anon--and we all know that blue sandals and straw hats is the ordinary attire of people taking the high speed rail, which is the equivalent of buying an airplane ticket,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-64791515191620735142007-09-20T10:55:00.000+08:002007-09-20T10:55:00.000+08:00mark:I'll be the first to admit that I don't follo...mark:<B>I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow politics here that closely ... <BR/>... As such, the referendum is meaningless.</B><BR/><BR/>After seeing how big storm this referendum idea has stirred, you still think that it's meaningless? Maybe you are really too far away from Taiwan politics.<BR/><BR/><B>More significantly, it ticks off the closest thing to a good friend that Taiwan has- the US.</B><BR/><BR/>Can't you tell that it might be intended?<BR/><BR/><B>It also seems very disingenuous for Chen to deny that the meaningless referendum to be held at the same time as presidential elections "has anything to do with politics". To this outside observer, it looks like he's trying to mobilize his base.</B><BR/><BR/>You are contradicting yourself. If in your mind the referendum can mobilize Chen's base, how can you describe it as "meaningless"? <BR/><BR/>Talking about "disingenuous" ...Runsunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00943096071902196841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-62622367530806620572007-09-19T17:20:00.000+08:002007-09-19T17:20:00.000+08:00When the DPP buses in people to attend rallies it ...When the DPP buses in people to attend rallies it is portrayed as 'mobilizing its supporters', but when the KMT buses in people it is referred to as 'attracting supporters'............. <BR/>I was at the Taichung High Speed Rail Station Saturday morning - there was an army of media vans with cameras ready apparently waiting the arrival of Ma and company in their blue sandals and straw hats.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-83310839399033917312007-09-19T11:33:00.000+08:002007-09-19T11:33:00.000+08:00Everyone should write to Time. Don't think that i...Everyone should write to Time. Don't think that it won't make any difference. Editors notice these things;<BR/><BR/>letters@time.com<BR/><BR/>And what do we know about Natalie Tso, the journalist who wrote this nonsense?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-87623216044442602082007-09-19T10:23:00.000+08:002007-09-19T10:23:00.000+08:00Mark -- Look at your language -- which is reasonab...Mark -- <BR/><BR/>Look at your language -- which is reasonable and nuetral -- compared to the reporter's. Don't you think it is possible to talk about Taiwan without portraying the island as a metaphorical toddler in a world of adults? You managed it, why couldn't TIME?<BR/><BR/>The referendum has no meaning, but it is not useless. Of course the DPP is mobilizing the DPP base. It is also dominating the discourse here, raising the island's profile, and forcing the KMT into a reactive rather than proactive mode. These are all good things.<BR/><BR/>Pissing off the US is not a good thing, but I think they'll throttle back now that they have made their point and move on to other mobilization activities.<BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1683705320619664322007-09-19T08:21:00.000+08:002007-09-19T08:21:00.000+08:00Michael,A most excellent skewering of what could o...Michael,<BR/><BR/>A most excellent skewering of what could only be characterized as journalistic rubbish. Some parts of the article gave me the shakes. The manner in which you pick it apart and analyze the subtle use of language (subtle to the uninformed who don’t know better, that is — and that would be most readers, unfortunately) is in the great tradition of Robert Fisk, Richard Falk and Howard Friel’s work on media reporting on the Middle East.<BR/><BR/>I also like the part where the author says that “Taiwan has tried — and failed — to regain membership,” by which the oblivious reporter is saying that (a) at one point in the past Taiwan (emphasis) was a member of the UN; and (b) that given (a), Taiwan (emphasis) must be a country, as membership is contingent on that precondition being met. Obviously this isn’t what Kathleen Kingsbury wanted to convey, but I found that amusing nonetheless.<BR/><BR/>I had intended to write to Time, but now I know that effort is in good hands already.J. Michael Cole 寇謐將https://www.blogger.com/profile/12125612369359079447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-64692210276676986972007-09-19T06:59:00.000+08:002007-09-19T06:59:00.000+08:00I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow pol...I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow politics here that closely, but I thought the Time article hit the nail on the head.<BR/><BR/>What will the referendum on whether to use the name "Taiwan" in the next failed bid to enter the UN do? The DPP has already decided to use the name "Taiwan" without holding a referendum. As such, the referendum is meaningless. More significantly, it ticks off the closest thing to a good friend that Taiwan has- the US.<BR/><BR/>It also seems very disingenuous for Chen to deny that the meaningless referendum to be held at the same time as presidential elections "has anything to do with politics". To this outside observer, it looks like he's trying to mobilize his base.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652288045145591799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-51930717408772512832007-09-19T05:36:00.000+08:002007-09-19T05:36:00.000+08:00Michael, according to that article you linked, the...Michael, according to that article you linked, the now-83-year-old Loh I-cheng was having memory lapses <I>5 years ago</I>. <I>Time</I> reporters will go to him <I>even now</I> to get "good quote"? That's absolute insanity!<BR/><BR/>As for letters to <I>Time</I>'s editors, I think 1,000 people should write to them (which anyone can do by clicking the author's name at the top of that article) telling them that <I>they</I> (<I>Time</I>'s editors, that is) need to be spanked. As Robo says, don't expect any change to come about from it, but they must at least be mocked -- especially by bloggers who have the background to easily spot the taint in that article.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://indiac.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow" TITLE="It's Not Democracy, It's A Conspiracy!">Tim Maddog</A>Tim Maddoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16943522529132663780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-40765967756496578732007-09-19T00:56:00.000+08:002007-09-19T00:56:00.000+08:00Hi Michael,I share the same of others that you sho...Hi Michael,<BR/><BR/>I share the same of others that you should write to TIME about fallacies of this slanted article.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-45672286685853283302007-09-18T22:30:00.000+08:002007-09-18T22:30:00.000+08:00陸以正 is more than just an old KMT hand. He's a blue...陸以正 is more than just an old KMT hand. He's a blue dinosaur and trusted ideological henchman of CCK. He writes regularly in the China Time and the United Daily news advocating that Taiwan end its security relationship with the US and cozy up to Beijing is still in a good mood. He was strongly in favor of the KMT rapprochement with the CCP and an apologist for the Anti-Secession Law. <BR/><BR/>What's more, he is almost unbelievably out of touch with contemporary Taiwan. It would be hard to have picked someone more blue to the bone then old Loh.<BR/><BR/>I seem to remember having dug up an incriminating interview with Chao, but he is indeed a slippery fish to pin down.Michael Faheyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11057491107522344042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-23104742772999075432007-09-18T20:26:00.000+08:002007-09-18T20:26:00.000+08:00Judging from the history of the Time magazine, it ...Judging from the history of the Time magazine, it was blindly slanted to KMT during WW II, and now it is still blindly slanted --- this time the *real* China.<BR/><BR/>Just as blind as Ma !Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-56397474748401293892007-09-18T16:26:00.000+08:002007-09-18T16:26:00.000+08:00Agreed.How can such a shockingly biased piece appe...Agreed.<BR/>How can such a shockingly biased piece appear in a supposedly reputable magazine?<BR/>Mind you, Time has always been a cheerleader for China.HeiShouDang 黑手黨https://www.blogger.com/profile/02193732868028532436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-85289616806284632882007-09-18T15:37:00.000+08:002007-09-18T15:37:00.000+08:00I agree. Michael, who better than you to write a ...I agree. Michael, who better than you to write a letter to the editor?<BR/><BR/>Though.....it probably won't change anything....sadly.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17810211372214301382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-60016213107801151462007-09-18T15:13:00.000+08:002007-09-18T15:13:00.000+08:00Interesting how the very same media establishment ...Interesting how the very same media establishment treats progressive bloggers, anti-(Iraq and Iran) war activists, and the liberal wing of the Democratic party in the US in very similar terms (as children, loonies, idealists, naive, hippies etc), while overlooking the foibles and accepting the frames of the Republican Party and their Democratic enablers (search Bush Dogs). The media establishment is simply a representation of the cultural hegemony of our times.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03648566751513055517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-75777178200334164922007-09-18T12:47:00.000+08:002007-09-18T12:47:00.000+08:00I think you could put together a good little lette...I think you could put together a good little letter to TIME from your thoughts in this post.<BR/>If you point out how all of the quotes/opinions only come from one side of the argument, that's a pretty powerful point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com