tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post2982904790248730245..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: A Taiwanese Yankee in King George's CourtMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36530351788884603872008-10-22T02:28:00.000+08:002008-10-22T02:28:00.000+08:00question: by XO do you mean cognac?Because I tried...question: by XO do you mean cognac?<BR/>Because I tried to explain to my student that XO is the short for "extra old" and not the name of an alcohol.Could you please tell me if it's an American slang word or only a Taiwanese one. An other one: do you know the meaning of DM , word used to design posters in Taiwan?<BR/>Sorry, it's not really the topic but I'd really like to know...<BR/>hsia@mail.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-51435570852301373762008-10-22T02:25:00.000+08:002008-10-22T02:25:00.000+08:00question: by XO do you mean cognac?Because I tried...question: by XO do you mean cognac?<BR/>Because I tried to explain to my student that XO is the short for "extra old" and not the name of an alcohol.Could you please tell me if it's an American slang word or only a Taiwanese one. An other one: do you know the meaning of DM , word used to design posters in Taiwan?<BR/>Sorry, it's not really the topic but I'd really like to know...<BR/>hsia@mail.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-10445715723315475642008-10-21T15:06:00.000+08:002008-10-21T15:06:00.000+08:00Correction: I wrote that the top "good genes" pac...Correction: I wrote that the top "good genes" package is beyond the grasp of most guys. But hwo knows if that's actually true? Many guys (in all cultures) may be capable of delousing themselves of their cultural conditioning and social programming. Maybe all they need is exposure to evolutionary biology/psychology knowledge; then, if their genes have blessed them with (a) flexibility of mind and (b)powers of concentration and determination, they can acquire the package. Maybe there are lots of guys with latent good-enough genes. If there are, and if they all started suddenly displaying them, the, in the endless evolutionar arms race, looks and physical prowess would probably become much more decisive fitness factors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-63553507842048407132008-10-21T14:38:00.000+08:002008-10-21T14:38:00.000+08:00Anon:Perhaps my phrase "but very well may draw con...Anon:<BR/><BR/>Perhaps my phrase "but very well may draw contempt" mislead; I'm not prepared at all to say most women would feel contempt for male conspicuous consumption, but many of the women, both Taiwanese and Western, whom I know do, so I doubt the percent is insignificant.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, though, the point is that once women's "good genes"-seeking sexuality is taken into account, conspicuous consumption is revealed as a high-cost (in terms of time as well as money) strategy with lesser success rates than other strategies -- an all-around inferior strategy.<BR/><BR/>And that's why this statement of yours is exactly right: "those at the top don't necessarily benefit and are even be hurt by conspicuous consumption, but average Joe's do benefit. If it didn't, there'd be zero reason to do it, and it just wouldn't happen." Yes, those average Joes do benefit somewhat, but not nearly as much as they hope and think. (Peopl's beliefs often don't tally with reality.) Other choices would maximize benefits much more than this one does. Conspicuous consumption is simply not a high-fitness choice -- it is basically "faking" fitness, and most women know that. But the "provider-seeking" part of their sexuality will, in the case of many women, be interested in milking this faked fitness to a degree -- maybe to a large degree.<BR/><BR/>None of this means women aren't interested in conspicuous consumption -- especially as a form of competition among themselves. I'm only saying, that while it does work to a degree, it is a relatively ineffective (maybe the least effective) strategy of all for getting women.<BR/><BR/>Great confidence, passion, a sense of humor (the kind females relate to, not the more ironic style males relate to -- but also not female-style humor), and honesty and integrity is by far the best strategy. These things have no material cost and women know that. Yet this package is beyond the grasp of most guys (including me, but I'm working on it), and they know that, too. Thus, in most cases, it beats even good looks and physical prowess. And that's why, compared with conspicuous consumption, it's far superior to them as a fitness measure.<BR/><BR/>If we agree taht cosnpicuous consumption is a male-fitness strategy that works to a degree but not to a high degree -- taht it works quite poorly in relation to some other strategies (inclduing being a "bad boy"), then we have no argument at all. Anyway, I wasn't thinking in terms of arguing; if people don't buy the evolutionary biology/psychology angle, then there's not much you can say to them. Basically, I was just making sure that angle got aired.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-91608708022104100132008-10-21T04:19:00.000+08:002008-10-21T04:19:00.000+08:00vin:You're wrong about women being turned off by c...vin:<BR/><BR/>You're wrong about women being turned off by conspicuous consumption. Signaling and information is well-researched by economics (evolutionary psychology, possibly because of the lack of mathematical rigor in the field is quite late to the game). The question is who benefits from conspicuous consumption--those at the top don't necessarily benefit and are even be hurt by conspicuous consumption, but average Joe's do benefit. If it didn't, there'd be zero reason to do it, and it just wouldn't happen.<BR/><BR/>Your argument about the good-looking in Taiwan and in the US are along my lines, so I don't know where the disagreement is coming from, except that you say "it's complicated".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-69025261186382428762008-10-20T23:20:00.000+08:002008-10-20T23:20:00.000+08:00it seems to me that your description of taiwanese ...it seems to me that your description of taiwanese consumer conformism would apply to a whole heck of a lot of americans.<BR/><BR/>it was a fair point about the conformism of nonconformism, though. being approachably quirky and eccentric definitely wins one points, in the right circles. as does disdain in the wrong ones.無名 - wu minghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01078479850722724885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-42769267806943013342008-10-20T01:00:00.000+08:002008-10-20T01:00:00.000+08:00"Most foreigners in Taiwan, they are for the most ..."Most foreigners in Taiwan, they are for the most part, from the reject bag."<BR/><BR/>That would have to include the "foreigners" coming here from China for the past 400 years. There was nothing for them in China: land, food, you name it. They were rejects in every sense of the word. I'm talking about the Chinese settlers from Fujian during the Ming and Ching Dynasties and the soldiers in the Chiang Kai-shek's army. See accounts of the ragged scamps that landed in the late 40s: they could not drive or even ride a bike. They had no idea what running water was, etc. They saw the locals as nothing more than targets to steal from or shoot at.Patrick Cowsillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904899672214340947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-40849486045346970012008-10-19T21:56:00.000+08:002008-10-19T21:56:00.000+08:00Reply to Anon:I think you’ve misunderstood or are ...Reply to Anon:<BR/><BR/>I think you’ve misunderstood or are unaware of the evolutionary biology/psychology argument. No worries, though; most people misunderstand, not because it’s difficult to understand, but because it’s relatively new and it takes some reading to become familiar with.<BR/><BR/>Yes, my argument came off as American values vs. Taiwanese, but that’s because I was replying to a frame that Michael set. Actually, it’s not a good frame for getting to the bottom of the sex and romance stuff. My real point lies quite apart from cultural preferences and cultural conditioning and it is this: Women are programmed, regardless of culture, to see male conspicuous consumption as an inferior fitness display. Do they want men to have money? Yes! Must men, to get mates, have more money than they need to take care of themselves? Generally, no! And do women respect men showing off money? Almost invariably, no! Put it this way: a guy who owns a Porsche because he wants to impress, will not impress (but very well may draw quiet contempt). But a guy who owns a Porsche but does not brag about it but rather races it on weekends? He will score points in several categories and women will chase him The first guy – a provider-type will have to work hard to get women – and the ones he gets will milk him and either have “good genes” types lovers on the side or else dream about having them. Why? Because women are in no way stupid (are a lot smarter than men on this stuff, actually): they realize that the first type of guy is basically compensating for a lack of confidence by trying to “buy” them. The second guy, though? He’s got juice, a life they would like to attach themselves to, and gens they would like to get.<BR/><BR/>Your observations about the levels of appearance of who’s hooking up cross-culturally here are irrelevant. Why? All kinds of factors significantly complicate the picture, so I’ll only bother to cite one: generally, the hottest looking people do not bother to learn foreign languages; from a young age, they’ve been thriving on the attention their looks garner; they haven’t been applying themselves to study. So take a Taiwanese woman of this sort – or even take a Taiwanese hottie who did learn English --; they know so well that their opportunities to play guys are far greater in the Taiwanese sphere than in the West. And if they get openly involved with a Westerner HERE, god forbid, many of those chances go out the window, not just for the moment, but forever. Few would ever close their choices off like that, even if they find some Westerners attractive.<BR/><BR/>No one is saying character and integrity don’t matter. But yes, being a “douchebag” not only works for appealing to one of women’s dual sexualities (the “good genes”-seeker); it’s actually one of the more maximal strategies.<BR/><BR/>In essence, seriously being a “bad boy” is faking fitness (“I’m so strong and independent that I don’t care at all what people think of what I do”) unless the guy really is clever enough to avoid sanction and punishment; the same as conspicuous consumption is the ploy of the mediocre to fake fitness.<BR/><BR/>There are many factors, dimensions, whatever that come into play, but whatever, the key thing I was saying is that evolutionary biology/psychology deems conspicuous consumption and not breaking free from mama to be, in women’s eyes, markers of low fitness no matter what culture women are from. Women are PROGRAMMED by the genes to see these choices as low fitness, whenever women have work opportunities and when economic privation does not rule the land – the case today in Taiwan, different from the case in the past here. There’s not much culture can do, short of outright coercion, to override this programming. Even female will has trouble overiding the programming, which is part of why what women say they like and want is so often so different from they choose.<BR/><BR/>The key is to understand that female sexuality is dual. David De Angelo gives a lay man’s (If you read him, pardon the pun) take on all of this. And Geoffrey Miller and Randy Thornhill are two of the leading purveyors of the scientific view. I’ve put at the bottom here their abstracts for papers for a conference in Arizona earlier this year.<BR/><BR/>Check it all out, I’d say; do some reading. Maybe your views on many things, especially between men and women, will change.<BR/><BR/>Geoffrey Miller, University of New Mexico <BR/>The Evolutionary Social Psychology of Consumer Behavior<BR/><BR/>Evolutionary psychology is starting to illuminate the world of consumer behavior, marketing, and product design - but that world can also reveal many new things about human nature. In this talk, I'll review some key ideas from my forthcoming book 'Faking fitness: The evolutionary origins of consumer narcissism', and discuss three recent empirical studies. (1). Asking people to think about possible mates leads men to invest more money in conspicuous consumption (spending on high-cost luxuries), whereas it leads women to invest more time in blatant benevolence (conspicuous altruism) (Griskevicius et al., 2007). (2) Players in the online game 'World of Warcraft' are willing to spend a huge price premium at public auctions for weapons that look larger, cooler, and rarer, even controlling for all objective attributes of the weapons (Mendenhall & Miller, in prep) (3) Professional lap-dancers earn much more money per shift when they are in estrus (maximum–fertility days just before ovulation), than when they are in the luteal or menstrual phases of the cycle, but taking the contraceptive Pill eliminates this estrus earnings boost (Miller, Tybur, & Jordan, 2007). In each case, an evolutionary psychology theory plus empirical investigation of consumer spending patterns yields new insights into human social and sexual strategies. <BR/><BR/>Randy Thornhill, University of New Mexico <BR/>The Functional Design and Phylogeny of Women's Dual Sexuality: Estrus and Extended Sexuality<BR/><BR/>Recent research questions the conventional wisdom about the evolution of women's sexuality. Women have two functionally distinct sexualities. At the fertile phase of the cycle, women prefer male traits that may mark superior genetic quality. At infertile cycle phases, women prefer men willing to invest resources in a mate. Women's peri–ovulatory sexuality is homologous with estrus in other vertebrates and estrus likely arose first in the species ancestral to vertebrates. Thus, contrary to conventional wisdom, women have not lost estrus, and human estrus likely functions to get a sire of superior genetic quality, which is the evolved function of estrus throughout the vertebrates. Women's sexuality outside estrus is extended sexuality. It appears to function, as in other taxa with this type of sexuality, to get material benefits from males. Also contrary to conventional wisdom, men perceive and respond to women's estrus, including by increased mate guarding. Men's response is limited compared to other vertebrate males, implying co-evolutionary history of selection on females to conceal estrus from men and selection on men to detect it. Research indicates that women's concealed estrus is an adaptation to conditionally copulate with men other than the pair–bond partner. Women's sexual ornaments–the estrogen–facilitated features of face and body–appear to be honest signals of individual quality pertaining to future reproductive value (R. Thornhill and S. W. Gangestad. In press. The Evolutionary Biology of Human Female Sexuality. Oxford Univ. Press).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-70028067677931367342008-10-19T16:18:00.000+08:002008-10-19T16:18:00.000+08:00Anonymous (5:28) offers My personal observations a...Anonymous (5:28) offers <I>My personal observations as an American male [...]<BR/>Most foreigners in Taiwan, they are for the most part, from the reject bag. There are exceptions, but on average, that's just the way it is.</I><BR/><BR/>Then I am as pleased to represent the exception as you are the rule.<BR/><BR/>: DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-20760946484472630852008-10-19T15:59:00.000+08:002008-10-19T15:59:00.000+08:00Thanks, Michael. Bobo culture is still going stron...Thanks, Michael. Bobo culture is still going strong in North America, I see.<BR/><BR/>Bobos--Bourgeois Bohemians--were well described (and the word coined) by David Brooks in his book <I>Bobos in Paradise</I> (2000). The book is ready for a slight update but it remains a perceptive and entertaining read. <BR/><BR/>Brooks, who describes himself as a Bobo, has the shtick down:<BR/><BR/><I>It's not about making money. It's about doing something you love. Life should be an extended hobby. It's all about working for a company as cool as you are.</I><BR/><BR/>- The Observer<BR/>http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2000/may/28/focus.news1<BR/><BR/>The Bobo is Ben & Jerry's and Starbucks, Blackberries and SUVs, Europe and America. <BR/><BR/>And it is <I>not</I> Taiwanese. We don't do Bobos here.<BR/><BR/>The reason we don't is because in Taiwan it's fine to be a bourgeois without the bohemian. There is no shame in saying 'I want to make money' and then making it and enjoying it.<BR/><BR/>It's a big difference, and it shows itself in many ways. Plenty of cultural and historical reasons exist for it, of course. Much about 'status' depends on how people perceive their society's bell curve, how they view the things their parents held dear, how they reject certain things as well as how they embrace others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-66472214449208379752008-10-19T05:25:00.000+08:002008-10-19T05:25:00.000+08:00Status and conforming are pretty important to a lo...Status and conforming are pretty important to a lot of people in Taiwan, like anywhere else. Someone mentioned: <BR/><BR/>“They don’t care about the taste. They just want to drink it to show how rich they are.”<BR/><BR/>For this reason, I think I've been on the receiving end of great expensive bottles of booze here in Taiwan. <BR/><BR/>But I have also run into people who say they are drinking wine because they are convinced of the health benefits. They'll tell me "I have a glass a day". You'll see now that a few shops in Taiwan are offering decent bottles of Chilean, French, Australian, etc. wine for more reasonable prices. I should take a cue from the and wean my appetite for Taiwan Beer.Patrick Cowsillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904899672214340947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-28664737846536278072008-10-18T22:23:00.000+08:002008-10-18T22:23:00.000+08:00Great post. I'd like to hear more about the wine m...Great post. I'd like to hear more about the wine marketing. There is a boutique wine store in my neighborhood, and while the restaurants around it have gone in and out of business, the little store has managed to survive. It's one of those places that I just can't imagine how they stay in business.Taiwanonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08963522173187644195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-74808815018154641842008-10-18T12:41:00.000+08:002008-10-18T12:41:00.000+08:00@Anonymous said..."My personal observations as an ...@Anonymous said...<BR/><I>"My personal observations as an American male:"</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Dude, crawl back into your hermit cave. you are an imbecile.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-19012915970329310122008-10-17T16:34:00.000+08:002008-10-17T16:34:00.000+08:00Hmmmm, I think that is not quite true (about not c...Hmmmm, I think that is not quite true (about not caring how it tastes, only about the price.) If it is completely awful tasting, I don't think anyone would drink it. <BR/><BR/>You'll notice that ice wine was quite popular in Taiwan and China, because its sweet...so obviously they are not just buying on price tag, but somebody likes sweet wine.<BR/><BR/>And I think you could easily find Americans who drink expensive wine for the EXACT same reason. They may just be better at pretending they can tell the taste difference in the wine.<BR/><BR/>Red AAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-665034874066632612008-10-17T13:08:00.000+08:002008-10-17T13:08:00.000+08:00Here's an interesting piece regarding conspicuous ...Here's an interesting piece regarding conspicuous consumption from The Atlantic. People have the tendency to demonstrate their wealth through conspicuous consumption when they are poor. <BR/><BR/>http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/consumption<BR/><BR/>May be we will see more kit cars on the streets of Taipei when Taiwanese have more money in their pockets?Wealey's dadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116162043309193920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-21993162811479779332008-10-17T12:50:00.000+08:002008-10-17T12:50:00.000+08:00I think a really important point in trying to lump...I think a really important point in trying to lump Chinese and culture together in Taiwan is the importance of horizontal transmission of culture as opposed to the typical vertical transmission model "westerners" like to attribute to Asian peoples (ancient and mysterious). I think this post really highlights the possibility that Taiwan is culturally Taiwanese and NOT Chinese, but something else. <BR/><BR/>The peer group plays a more important role in cultural transmission and cultural drift (change) than the parents do. Look at the differences in behavior and values between generations. Wine drinking an example of Taiwan's prestige culture says a lot about who Taiwanese are trying to identify with as peers and which age group is adopting this culture. <BR/><BR/>I was reminded of this last night when I was a the home of a well-to-do Taiwanese family and I noticed their decoration scheme was heavily influenced by classical European tastes. Most striking were the displays of Dutch China plates--replicas of the type valued by Dutch traders in Taiwan 400 years ago. On display they had butter dishes, salt and pepper shakers, salad plates and serving platters. An arrangement completely juxtaposed to the typical modes of preparing and serving Taiwanese cuisine. They were identifying with people they sought as their peers in Europe. <BR/><BR/>In Taiwan peer groups are less defined by ethnic background and or cultural background, but by class (sometimes class impacted how citizens were treated by the state). It was very common for cross ethnic marriage to occur as long as both parties shared a similar class background. In several cases plains aborigine elites would marry Han elites over people of the same ethnic group of a lower class. <BR/><BR/>The over arching factor is not a shared or common culture based on descent ... but the state structure which provides the cultural schemas for successfully negotiating pathways to power and prosperity. <BR/><BR/>Here, Taiwan has had a different experience than China under several different regimes that built state structures far different than experienced by the people in China. These structures allowed people to form new and different peer groups with markedly different values, memes, idioms and metaphors to best navigate through the structures of society that reflected the values of different governing polities.<BR/><BR/>Changes in the governing regime often resulted in the invention of new classes and cultures as people adjusted to best adapt to their environment. The most recent example may be Taiwan's shift to democracy. Following Lee Teng hui's successful consolidation of power and repealed many of the constraints of the dictatorship, Taiwanese were again free to renegotiate their values, symbols, meanings and cultures. This also opened up new pathways to economic prosperity for a number of Taiwanese who became the Nouveau rich of the 90's. An excellent example may be the surge in indigenous cultural production and how indigenous symbols have been deployed by indigenes and Han alike. <BR/><BR/>Before I digress any further...Taiwan's unique experience and continued structural change under its own governance and the specific values of the governing polity (and parties) has compelled Taiwanese to adopt new symbols and meaning that are salient and instantly decoded by other Taiwanese in ways that are different from China... i.e. different cultures. China's experience with Maoist ideology (including the cultural revolution) also changed the structural pathways to power and influenced the formation of culture. Blah blah blah...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-5083106191259233392008-10-17T10:17:00.000+08:002008-10-17T10:17:00.000+08:00Michael, great seeing you today, albeit how short ...Michael, great seeing you today, albeit how short it was.......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-28752927900884635202008-10-17T08:33:00.000+08:002008-10-17T08:33:00.000+08:00"Because as everyone knows there is nothing to see..."Because as everyone knows there is nothing to see or do in Washington, and so our nation's capital must place the national symbol of another nation on its metro tickets."<BR/><BR/>A little hypersensitive, aren't we?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-70615573297227162252008-10-17T05:28:00.000+08:002008-10-17T05:28:00.000+08:00My personal observations as an American male:Taiwa...My personal observations as an American male:<BR/><BR/>Taiwanese girls can be much more openly attracted to education, profession, and money than American girls are (well, I would say American girls just hide it better). I would say that's the biggest difference, with some Taiwanese girls mistaking some foreigners for having money when all they really have is a suit (you'd think Mormons have already so debased the value of the shirt and tie that it wouldn't make a difference, but there's a sucker born everyday I guess).<BR/><BR/>Vin made some long comments that can be boiled down to some kind of Western male superiority argument. Well, from what I've seen--the good news is that a bunch of people in Taiwan and a bunch of foreigners that would otherwise maybe not have found "the one" were able to find "the one".<BR/><BR/>The bad news? Vin's argument doesn't match observation. The biggest prediction would be that sort of douche bag white guys could get with really hot Taiwanese girls that would otherwise have access to stud Taiwanese guys. I don't see that <I>at all</I>. Once in awhile, I'll see a really beautiful Taiwanese girl with a foreigner, but that foreigner is usually real good looking too. But most of the time, it's the American reject bag together with the Taiwanese reject sack.<BR/><BR/>I think it makes a lot of sense. If you're some handsome guy with good social schools and a top college education, you don't leave your home country--you get a job and make tons of money. Teaching English in Taiwan only looks like a lot of money to peole that couldn't make it in a developed country. The guys that have the competence to do something slightly interesting, like open a buxiban are very few and far between. Most foreigners in Taiwan, they are for the most part, from the reject bag. There are exceptions, but on average, that's just the way it is.<BR/><BR/>The explanation on the female side is the same--the hot chicks all have had good looking, highly educated, steady boyfriends for awhile and there are quality guys lined-up taking numbers. She ain't trolling for a foreign boyfriend.<BR/><BR/>There is something to the phenomenon though--most Taiwanese girls I know think white guys (and girls) are just all sluts and for the subsegment of the (often Taipei) female population that sort of wants to practice their English and just have a fling, the white guy "slut" is perfect.<BR/><BR/>Anyways, like I said, people that come to Taiwan are looking for something, and I think that's true for a segment of Taiwan's population too--if they both find what they're looking for, more power to them, I say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-5913200343222081922008-10-17T00:06:00.000+08:002008-10-17T00:06:00.000+08:00Jews make up a large minority in the US, and many ...<I>Jews make up a large minority in the US, and many of them have families that were profoundly affected by the Holocaust. In fact, the events leading up to, surrounding and following the Second World War led to a mass migration of Jews to the US, most of whom became American citizens. The Holocaust is, therefore, a part of American culture.</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps we should locate an Irish Potato Famine Memorial Museum next to it. Maybe just down the street we could have our Persecution of French Huguenots Memorial Museum. And across the street we could place our Communism Memorial Museum. All those events caused large numbers of immigrants from certain peoples to come to the United States and become citizens, and affected many families. <BR/><BR/>How about a Slavery Memorial Museum?<BR/>At least that would be about something that didn't only occur overseas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-31674945492359553392008-10-16T19:08:00.000+08:002008-10-16T19:08:00.000+08:00Vin and Wulingren -- there's a hell of a lot more ...Vin and Wulingren -- there's a hell of a lot more to say about it, of course, like tossing in social class, of course. All I was trying to say really was: "we're not so different."<BR/><BR/>Vin if you are in taiwan we really need to get together for a beer.<BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-67679540855984939162008-10-16T19:07:00.000+08:002008-10-16T19:07:00.000+08:00Erik -- it's been nonstop socializing here. Haven'...Erik -- it's been nonstop socializing here. Haven't had time to run around doing stuff, really.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-67173677630315632502008-10-16T18:27:00.000+08:002008-10-16T18:27:00.000+08:00Michael,This might just be my favorite post of all...Michael,<BR/><BR/>This might just be my favorite post of all that you have written, and you have written some great stuff. A few things: While I agree with what you say about prestige, I think there are aspects of Chinese culture that match the conoisseurism of wine drinking in the west. The first thing that comes to mind is tea drinking, which also uses a whole host of vocabulary to describe it. Obviously, conoisseurism has a lot to do with prestige, in both cultures. I wonder if the woman from Beijing was referring specifically to wine, and how she felt Chinese people are able or not able to appreciate wine, a western substance. Would she have had the same reaction to tea? Or to Chinese liquor? Or to Peking Opera? I don't know how many times Chinese friends have asked me: "Can you really appreciate that Chinese delicasy?" "Can you as a westerner comprehend that Tang dynasty poem?" "Can you grock Chinese culture?" (Obviously paraphrased) So, was the woman from Beijing also implying, in the same way, that she as a Chinese person could not appreciate this Western thing called wine?Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03648566751513055517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-54341732701874294802008-10-16T17:49:00.000+08:002008-10-16T17:49:00.000+08:00Ufff.... Where's the picture of Tuniclif's famous ...Ufff.... Where's the picture of Tuniclif's famous Bloody Mary? Eastern Market?Erik Lundhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15242992877113635788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-10126519305140899622008-10-16T15:37:00.000+08:002008-10-16T15:37:00.000+08:00Or to put it all yet another way, that Beijing chi...Or to put it all yet another way, that Beijing chic ain't your father-in-law and never will be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com