tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post2469343392907722820..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: Two views of Consensus and Self-determinationMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-18073080545955630412010-07-01T21:02:46.651+08:002010-07-01T21:02:46.651+08:00On the other hand, I am rather convinced by this e...On the other hand, I am rather convinced by this eloquent letter against the Tsang article:<br />http://lettersfromtaiwan.blogspot.com/2010/06/danielsen-takes-tsang-apart.html<br /><br />The letter ends: "A lasting peace between Taiwan and China will only come when the world listens to Taiwanese and releases them from China’s grip."Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-79007735439363336372010-06-30T12:01:34.451+08:002010-06-30T12:01:34.451+08:00I always wondered what would happen to Jinmen and ...I always wondered what would happen to Jinmen and Mazu....<br /><br />You come awfully close to dismissing whatever anyone KMT says just because they are KMT. Well, maybe you do that outright, on purpose, but does being KMT-associated automatically disqualify all of one's ideas? And just a few days ago you seemed intrigued by an all-island consensus building summit. <br /><br />I'm afraid that would be "peace without recognition". But with de facto independence, as it stands now. Can you trust the PRC? No, of course not, but I think that misses the point. Diplomatic agreements aren't really based on trust. Rather, they're about codifying resolutions that satisfy the needs of both sides. They're sort of like compromises -- you hold your end of the bargain because it serves your interests. The CCP is much more interested in _appearing_ to resolve the Taiwan issue than it is in actually resolving it. Now, "phony" is an inappropriate word to apply to "independence", but Tsang may be right that independence is best achieved, or maintained, by thinking about other issues at play here. So what I was wondering was whether you would follow Tsang in giving some ground on principle in order to gain some ground in actuality. My guess is no, because that would be "appeasement". (I know you probably think I'm the ghost of Neville Chamberlain, if not of Stalin, but hey, my personality is just geared towards compromise wherever possible. Give me a break ;)). But what if the agreement was similar to the "one China" thing between the US and China, where the two sides say the same thing but mean something different? Watching the CCP trumpet this as a success sure would be nauseating, but might it be worth it? <br /><br />The mainland's side of the bargain would be the CCP saying to itself "ok, we're going to accept that Taiwan actually is a real democracy, not a Hong Kong-democracy, and that with a democracy there's always going to be a degree of uncertainty. Yes, they could have a referendum and declare independence, but we don't think they'll do that. We can handle it". It's a sensible choice for them, actually, because if things get so bad in China that over 2/3 of Taiwanese population are running scared, then the CCP has bigger problems on its hands than Taiwan.<br /><br />So you can see, perhaps, how by moving away from the independence-unification dichotomy we could say that "Taiwan issue" is really about this: the CCP's inability to accept _any_ possibility of any power structure other than its own. How they handled Falungong is symptomatic of this, but I think there are some signs that they are improving in this regard as they are forced to involve themselves constructively with other world powers, and a Taiwan agreement would require them to take a further leap forward.<br /><br />Actually, I still think the issue is best kicked down the road another 30 or 40 years, with some vague agreements or mutual statements to accomplish that task. At that point in time, who knows, maybe the idea of Taiwan as a nation-state (if we're still using that term then) in East Asia will not be so inconceivable to the mainland, or, who knows, maybe the idea of Taiwan as some part of some kind of "China" might not be so inconceivable to people here. Or maybe we'll all just exist as internet avatars anyway.Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-55009439287947740792010-06-30T07:08:09.017+08:002010-06-30T07:08:09.017+08:00(D), Tsang is a pro-ROC mainlander, Deep Blue, a l...(D), Tsang is a pro-ROC mainlander, Deep Blue, a leading historian of the ROC regime who holds the belief, like many modern educated True Believer KMTers, that the KMT will democratize China. On this issue his thinking thus remains firmly inside the old PRC "offer" that Taiwan can do whatever it wants once it is inside the motherland. He's not thinking outside the box, but aligning himself with ideas that are decades old. I've heard the claim that independence is a "phony" issue many times, and always from Deep Blue True Believers. Never from anyone on the pro-Taiwan side. Again, Tsang isn't thinking outside the box, just speaking in code.<br /><br />On a PRC peace treaty, do we get peace + recognition? Or just "peace." How would such an agreement have teeth? The issue is not what I would be willing to give up -- what wouldn't I be willing to give up! -- but whether the PRC will actually keep an agreement, after 60 years of proof that it does not.<br /><br />What would you like me to give up? Taiwan's independence is non-negotiable. I think most everything else would be on the table -- Jinmen and Matsu and the National Palace Museum relics, for starters, along with all claims to the Senkakus and the South China Sea Islands. If you could guarantee that the PRC would keep its word. <br /><br />Good luck with that.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-37622768641345236092010-06-29T22:48:13.009+08:002010-06-29T22:48:13.009+08:00Question for Michael. I liked both Tsang's ar...Question for Michael. I liked both Tsang's article (some muddy reasoning there but also some worthwhile leaps, like, although you hated it, trying to think outside the 'independence vs. unification' dichotomy) and your response. I especially liked reading the first one, trying to guess how you would take it on, then checking my guesses. It's really too bad Steve Tsang doesn't respond to your response. My guess (?) is that he might actually agree with a lot of what you say, while still insisting on some of his prospective remarks.<br /><br />But my question, if I may. Let's say you were negotiating with the PRC. What would you be willing to give up, or what compromise would you be willing to make, if the PRC offered a peace treaty, ie, renounced the use of force against their Taiwanese brothers? I'm just curious. Will your answer be "none whatsoever, because the wrong is all China's", or will it be something else?<br /><br />Thanks as always --<br />DDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-27220194956670214862010-06-29T08:43:02.984+08:002010-06-29T08:43:02.984+08:00A-bian did engage in a more divisive style of lead...A-bian did engage in a more divisive style of leadership in his second term. This should be an important lesson to Taiwanese. If Ma is elected for a second term then anything he has done up to now will look moderate in comparison. It is truly something to fear.applenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-10876575795525800212010-06-28T15:51:36.625+08:002010-06-28T15:51:36.625+08:00Not sure that Lee mis-judged the character of Lien...Not sure that Lee mis-judged the character of Lien and Ma, he's a pretty shrewd old fella. <br /><br />But I agree, Chen's election at least served to keep these two crooks, Lien and Soong out, apart from that he was a monumental disappointment and caused sever damage. <br /><br />Once again however, why were there not mass protests at the airport when Lien and Soong came back from their sales trips to Beijing? Why wasn't there people there in mass, holding signs telling them go back home where they belong? Maybe I missed something. <br /><br />What will finally bring the Taiwanese to their feet so that the world will know that all is not well here. And while I do not advocate the violence that Thailand has experienced, certainly the world knows that their is a problem in Thailand.Sagenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-6031730742011668342010-06-28T15:22:49.827+08:002010-06-28T15:22:49.827+08:00Whatever Chen did wrong, he at least had 1 contrib...Whatever Chen did wrong, he at least had 1 contribution: preventing Lien and Soong from becoming president in 2000 and 2004. Judging by these two's later actions, they will probably sell Taiwan out sooner or later. And with the population even more confused about its own identity back then, the job of selling out would be even easier.<br /><br />Lee contributed greatly to Taiwan, but there is one big mistake that he made: misjudge the character of Lien and Ma, and gave them great support during his time as KMT chairman.Dixteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05689510846926854542noreply@blogger.com