tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post1878030213208823278..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: More on the Phils/Taiwan Fisherman Mess Michael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-11140838936030616302013-05-19T12:40:16.312+08:002013-05-19T12:40:16.312+08:00May 16, 2013 at 4:17 PM Anonymous said... "It...May 16, 2013 at 4:17 PM Anonymous said... "It hurts us to hear that your citizens refused to sell foods to our Filipino workers. "<br />Not sure what incident you mentioned. If you mean the article from a facebook post which describes a restaurant that refused to sell a lunch box to a Philippine laborer, that article is probably fake news. Many people were questioned, how come the restaurant owner/staff can tell that the foreign laborer is from the Philippines and not from another Southeast Asian Country? How come that foreign laborer waited there for 1 hr and didn't try to buy food from other stores (there are many restaurants in that area and the lunch hr in Taiwan is usually 1 hr, people definitely won’t waste their time to wait for a lunch box for 1 hr ). People also found that the one who posted that article is a woman. She refuses to provide any evidence to prove it is the truth, she even closed her account. This is very weird.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-25971628756930123802013-05-17T18:37:01.148+08:002013-05-17T18:37:01.148+08:00From http://maxdefense.blogspot.sg/2013/05/fishing...From http://maxdefense.blogspot.sg/2013/05/fishingboat-shooting-incident-is-taiwan.html <br /><br />"Using a combination of Taiwan's CGA report and Philippine Coast Guard sources, it appears that 4 Taiwanese fishing boats were spotted by BFAR patrol boat MCS-3001 on May 9, 2013 at around 5:00AM. The boats were hailed and approached by MCS-3001 for boarding and inspection. But instead of stopping to be boarded, all 4 boats moved away towards Taiwan's direction. <br /><br />A chase ensued for more than 4 hours, with the BFAR-PCG boat giving warnings to stop using alarms or sirens, and loudspeaker annoucements. The Philippine boat made several attempts to board one of the boats but while doing so other fishing boats attempt to ram the Philippine boat. They were able to avoid collision in all those instances. This chase went on until around 9:30AM when the BFAR-PCG boat made warning shots for them to stop, but the 4 fishing boats did not heed the warning and instead continue to move away.<br /><br />Around 9:40AM, the Philippine boat decided to disable the machinery of one of the fishing boats, the Guang Ta Hsin 28, by shooting at its engine and machinery room. Several shots were made using its on-board machine gun, hitting the fishing boat in several areas. One of the bullets hit the neck of 65-year old Mr. Huang Shih-Cheng who was staying in the engine room of the fishing boat, killing him in the process.<br /><br />The boats continued to press on until Taiwanese CGA vessels met them to escort back to Taiwan. During the entire chase, Taiwan CGA was already informed that they were being chased by Philippine law enforcement boat.<br /><br />According to the son of the dead fisherman, they did not cross waters of Philippine jurisdiction, and that no warning shots were made by the Philippine group."<br /><br />I also think that if the PCG wanted to kill the fishermen, there would be 4 dead bodies riddled with bullets rather than one bullet striking Mr. Hung Shih-cheng in the neck.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09599569039974024329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-22509057583091908122013-05-16T16:17:12.382+08:002013-05-16T16:17:12.382+08:00Yes, it was clearly wrong to shoot unarmed civilia...Yes, it was clearly wrong to shoot unarmed civilians. As a Filipino I appeal for sobriety on both sides. Taiwanese government also over reacted on the incident. Please dont harm our innocent workers and humiliate our government. Here in Mindanao we torelated your abusive businessmen too. It hurts us to hear that your citizens refused to sell foods to our Filipino workers. How about if we harrassed also your people here in Mindanao. Would it be good on both sides? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-63657708771273615912013-05-16T16:13:26.023+08:002013-05-16T16:13:26.023+08:00Yes, it was clearly wrong to shoot unarmed civilia...Yes, it was clearly wrong to shoot unarmed civilians. As a Filipino I appeal for sobriety on both sides. Taiwanese government also over reacted on the incident. Please dont harm our innocent workers and humiliate our government. Here in Mindanao we torelated your abusive businessmen too. It hurts us to hear that your citizens refused to sell foods to our Filipino workers. How about if we harrassed also your people here in Mindanao. Would it be good on both sides? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-67246683071476069972013-05-16T11:15:12.369+08:002013-05-16T11:15:12.369+08:00It's also rather ridiculous that Taiwan has is...It's also rather ridiculous that Taiwan has issued a red travel alert to it's citizens. This is supposed to be used only in cases where clear and present danger to travelers in apparent. No Taiwanese is going to be kidnapped or shot while on vacation in Boracay. This is pure political retaliation, no different from the Chinese boycott of Kaohsiung etc. Disgusting.<br />I'm going to Cebu next week for a vacation. I'm sure there will be far less 'shout-first-think-never' idiots there than usual.<br /><br />Much more rational thinking over here: http://www.thinkingtaiwan.com/lesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-37443115734482238602013-05-16T09:09:22.234+08:002013-05-16T09:09:22.234+08:00Great comments, insights,etc. Thanks, guys. Great comments, insights,etc. Thanks, guys. Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-17747523376403897902013-05-16T08:14:26.805+08:002013-05-16T08:14:26.805+08:00A funny article from Taiwan "expert"
ht...A funny article from Taiwan "expert"<br /><br />http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2007/12/23/2003393815<br /><br />"Another Philippine academic, Pervagus, suggests that Section 4 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas (UNCLOS) justifies the Philippines' possession of the Batanes Islands. But section 4 of UNCLOS concerns archipelagic states only and the Philippines does not qualify."<br /><br /><br />--> The Philippines, not an archipelago??? Taipei Times writers must be professional liars, not journalistsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36606296107933322862013-05-16T06:50:15.594+08:002013-05-16T06:50:15.594+08:00StefanMuc
Look at Taiwan's history. The Taiwa...StefanMuc<br /><br />Look at Taiwan's history. The Taiwanese Aborigines or natives are of Austronesian stock. The same genetic stock found in the Philippines, Indonesia etc.<br /><br />In fact, tourists from both countries are surprised that their native inhabitants share similar cultures.<br /><br />Filipinos were not only fishing in Taiwanese waters a long time ago. Some of them actually started living in that area way before the Chinese transplants who now call themselves Taiwanese.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-23216082613957131602013-05-16T06:22:04.001+08:002013-05-16T06:22:04.001+08:00By the way, here is a bigger and clearer picture o...By the way, here is a bigger and clearer picture of batanes as well as babuyan islands. ALL are Philippine jurisdiction<br /><br />http://www.malapascua.de/Volcanoe-Map/Balintang-Channel.jpg<br /><br />The Batan islands is the Batanes province. The Babuyan island are part of the Cagayan province. These areas are NOT disputed. But for some reason, they are either erased by Taiwan or "included" in their "EEZ" Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-87672552272902247072013-05-16T05:33:17.711+08:002013-05-16T05:33:17.711+08:00Dear blogger,
I hope you hear me with this one ok...Dear blogger,<br /><br />I hope you hear me with this one okay?<br /><br />First, I would like to point out that the Chinese and Taiwanese media, as I have observed, has a habit of ERASING/REMOVING the province of Batanes from pictures when mentioning EEZ, the incident, "shared territory" and what not. I suspect this is to create an impression that the area is "disputed" esp the area where the incident happened.<br /><br />Batanes is the northernmost province of the Philippines and people there are Philippine citizens. <br /><br />For a picture where Batanes is located:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batanes<br /><br />I think it really thing Batanes has to stressed because the incident happened SOUTH of the province. Which basically means, it happened DEEP IN PHILIPPINE TERRITORY. It cannot be shared nor disputed.<br /><br />Also worth noting is the fact that territorial seas and EEZs are measured from BASELINE, not nearest landmass or island (you can double check this statement in the UNCLOS, it is in the UN site). The incident may have happened 43NM from Balintang island but the more pressing question is HOW FAR WAS IT FROM THE PHILIPPINE BASELINE?<br /><br />If we were to estimate it in this picture, the incident happened in Philippine TERRITORIAL waters, not just EEZ<br /><br />See image location:<br />http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Ph_Territorial_Map.png/612px-Ph_Territorial_Map.png<br /><br />http://www8.gmanews.tv/webpics/v3/2012/04/UNCLOS%20map_Phils.jpg<br /><br />Filipino fishermen don't go beyond the Bashi channel and we do not claim anything north of that, why are the Taiwanese trying to steal our territorial waters?<br /><br />If you ask many people from Batanes, there is a dislike against illegal Taiwanese fishermen and poachers because they shoo away Filipino fishermen in their own territory.<br /><br />The Coast Guard often seize illegal Vietnamese but they are not as arrogant as the illegal Chinese and Taiwanese.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-17910918803972883692013-05-15T20:58:20.793+08:002013-05-15T20:58:20.793+08:00"The way I see it, there's nothing "..."The way I see it, there's nothing "traditional" about it." All other points aside, it all depends on how you define "traditional". Since 1928, three to four generations have passed. A 45-year-old fisherman's grandfather could have fished there, and his family could have been fishing there ever since. For a family, 85 years is a long time. Of course, if the UN wants to be useful and define the word for us, then we can come to a conclusion. <br /><br />My 2c: I can't think of any reason why a Philippine ship would simply fire on a Taiwanese ship out of the blue. Violent naval behavior is completely out of character for the Philippines, which is too weak to afford provoking people left and right. And no pressure from other states, such as China exists in this case. It makes no sense unless the crew had some loose cannons (to use a pun). <br /><br />If there were loose cannons aboard, the proper way to go about this, regardless of where the shooting happened, would be to investigate the situation, not escalate it into a diplomatic crisis, which really helps neither country (Taiwan may need a friend down there some day). If it is compensation that is needed, surely a nice payoff to one fisherman's family could be attained in quiet diplomacy, even with a poor country like the Philippines. The Philippines might even apologize voluntarily. <br /><br />But Ma can't do the smart thing because all his royal silliness has to go on is his crappy foreign policy. This is one more reason why I frequently shake my head at Taiwan. It is such a great place, but it is not one of the world's repositories of logical thinking.Tommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552370490869601403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-5360501111240783582013-05-15T20:54:50.499+08:002013-05-15T20:54:50.499+08:00People have perhaps forgotten that it wasn't s...People have perhaps forgotten that it wasn't so long ago that young Taiwanese women used to go to the Philippines to work there as maids. The way things are going, it might happen again!<br /><br />In all though, the only winners in this business will be China and their lackeys.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-21480849352010471862013-05-15T14:23:02.986+08:002013-05-15T14:23:02.986+08:00Also having fished there since 1928 (does that dat...<b>Also having fished there since 1928 (does that date apply to the Philippines in this case?) is a relatively long time. Not sure if that's a valid comparison, but adverse possession is established after just 12 years, so calling this "traditional" may not be such a stretch.</b><br /><br />It's not really a time issue at all, at least to me. I mean, the reason they were fishing there was because it was part of a factory/colonization fishing program of the Japanese driven by modern capitalist technological and political expansion. The way I see it, there's nothing "traditional" about it. <br /><br />Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-59077308108796566672013-05-15T08:55:56.484+08:002013-05-15T08:55:56.484+08:00The ROC considers itself bound by such articles of...The ROC considers itself bound by such articles of UNCLOS that it finds convenient....<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mofa.gov.tw/EnOfficial/ArticleDetail/DetailDefault/ad125edc-048e-45de-93bc-11427232687b?arfid=7b3b4d7a-8ee7-43a9-97f8-7f3d313ad781&opno=84ba3639-be42-4966-b873-78a267de8cf1" rel="nofollow"> MOFA statement</a>Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-79491460706736394962013-05-15T08:53:24.638+08:002013-05-15T08:53:24.638+08:00Yes, but his foreign policy plays well domesticall...Yes, but his foreign policy plays well domestically. <br /><br />And I totally agree. Investigation first, decision about what to do, afterwards. <br /><br />Taiwan reached those waters only in the 1920s. When did it become habitual? No doubt after that. What's "traditional"? Could mean anything :). <br /><br />Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-57977275533349206052013-05-15T05:47:36.221+08:002013-05-15T05:47:36.221+08:00Well Taiwan wasn't given the chance to sign UN...Well Taiwan wasn't given the chance to sign UNCLOS, it's not that they chose to opt out (like e.g. the US). The Philippines have signed, so it doesn't seem that unreasonable to refer to the provisions the Philippines have agreed to accept.<br /><br />Also having fished there since 1928 (does that date apply to the Philippines in this case?) is a relatively long time. Not sure if that's a valid comparison, but adverse possession is established after just 12 years, so calling this "traditional" may not be such a stretch.<br /><br />In the case of the Senkakus it could be argued that Japan explicitly encouraged Taiwanese fishermen to fish there, so access rights (but not ownership) seem reasonably derived from that.<br /><br />Having said that: demanding an apology *followed* by an investigation is just absurd ... surely the first step would be to establish what actually happened. And regardless of right or wrong, President Ma's foreign policy appears to have all the grace of a slightly intoxicated elephant.StefanMuchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13041616398172997165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-10220007925956924452013-05-15T00:55:46.079+08:002013-05-15T00:55:46.079+08:00"It is difficult for me to look at that graph...<i>"It is difficult for me to look at that graphic and not see the Taiwanese boats as operating in Philippines waters."</i><br /><br />Agreed. I checked the location myself earlier this evening, and it is well within the Philipines' EEZ, whilst out toward the edge of any corresponding EEZ for Taiwan. But since Taiwan isn't even a signatory to the UN Convention, Taiwan can surely have no legal claim to any such overlapping EEZ. And nor does there appear to have been any prior bilateral agreement by which the Taiwanese fishing boat could have been there legally in any case - overlapping EEZ or not.<br /><br />But there's another point, irrespective of the dubious claim about "traditional" fishing grounds which is that even if Taiwan had been a signatory to the UN Convention, any bilateral agreements with the Philipines to avoid conflicts might also have hinged on the proximity principle; and since the location of the incident is much closer to the Philipines than it is to Taiwan, the Filipino case would seem to be much stronger.<br /><br />To believe the Taiwanese account, you have to somehow attribute unprovoked malice to the Philipine Coast Guard. To believe the Filipino account you only have to attribute ignorance/disregard for the UN Convention by Taiwanese fishermen. It's not a difficult choice really is it? Mike Faganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08745281285031316740noreply@blogger.com