tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post1332535501778312752..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: Ma's Inaugural Speech: a lookMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-28512379044492812442010-09-09T11:58:54.896+08:002010-09-09T11:58:54.896+08:00Yes but Chen wasn't advancing a Han colonialis...Yes but Chen wasn't advancing a Han colonialist program, while Ma is. Plus Chen's rhetoric shifted by audience and by topic, as a new study out soon will show, and Chen/DPP policies were also non-chauvinist. <br /><br />Another lesson in "context is everything"Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-8519145491522866152010-09-09T11:18:47.773+08:002010-09-09T11:18:47.773+08:00Just wanted to remind everyone that President Lee ...Just wanted to remind everyone that President Lee REPEATEDLY used the same "Han chauvinist" language in his inaugural speeches, evoking images of "the glorious 5000 years of the Chinese race" (中華民族五千年優秀文化), that the mainland China and Taiwan were part of the same Chinese race (同樣是中華民族的一份子), and that he wanted to work with the mainland towards the prosperity of the Chinese race (共謀中華民族的繁榮與發展!)<br /><br />President Chen similarly referred to Taiwan as a "Chinese society", calling his electoral victory a "milestone in Chinese societies worldwide" (更是全球華人社會劃時代的里程碑), wishes good health to the Chinese people on Taiwan and abroad (a similar blessing on other ethnic groups is conspicuously absent) (親愛的同胞,我們多麼希望海內外的華人都能親身體驗".<br /><br />In his 2004 speech, he also refers to Taiwan as a paragon for Chinese societies worldwide " 對於華人社會以及其他的新興民主國家而言,台灣的民主不僅是一個試煉、也是一個示範"<br /><br />In the same speech, President Chen also notes that the achievements by the people of Taiwan should be considered an asset for "Chinese societies and people on both sides of the strait"Eddiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02384313171178245546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36378217966822568432008-05-28T23:54:00.000+08:002008-05-28T23:54:00.000+08:0012.50 anonymous seems to have hit it on the head, ...12.50 anonymous seems to have hit it on the head, and still hasn't worked it out himself.<BR/>""Zhonghua Minzu" is general and non-political enough that most (not all, apparently, but we'll go with the majority opinion since we all subscribe to democracy, right?) Mandarin speakers would find it entirely acceptable for Ma or Wu to use."<BR/>That's true, most native speakers of Mandarin don't have a problem with the phrase. Problem is, nearly half of Taiwan aren't native speakers of Mandarin, and, you know, people were kind of hoping that Ma might try to appeal to all citizens of Taiwan. Vain hope.chinaphilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14572591745611690731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-16709886793349954982008-05-28T16:26:00.000+08:002008-05-28T16:26:00.000+08:00The idea and term "minzu" is loaded. It was origin...The idea and term "minzu" is loaded. It was originally invented by the Japanese following the invasion and colonization of Hokkaido Island. It was adopted by Chinese nationalists in the late 19th Century to express their concept of incorporating the peoples and vast territories of the Qing Empire while maintaining Han dominance. It is social-darwinist at its core and Han consider themselves "the fittest" and the most "modern". It burdens the "others" to change and it gives the government "science" to colonize them and change them. This is one of the big problems. It is very Chauvinistic and neglects, what is probably the most binding force of disparate peoples; the imagined community of shared values and the experience of the society (government, education, taxation, popular media etc...) from which people can be equal based on their experience rather than their "ethnicity".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-79032735924460981912008-05-28T12:50:00.000+08:002008-05-28T12:50:00.000+08:00My main point, which I think most native Mandarin ...My main point, which I think most native Mandarin speakers would agree with, is that the term "Zhonghua Minzu" is general and non-political enough that most (not all, apparently, but we'll go with the majority opinion since we all subscribe to democracy, right?) Mandarin speakers would find it entirely acceptable for Ma or Wu to use.<BR/><BR/>My second point is that you do not seem to understand the Chinese language well enough, or at least the nuances of certain words, to understand the situation. Your argument, the source of your indignation, relies on how a translator chose to translate certain words and ascribes intentional motivations as to the particular choice of wording to Ma/Wu. I would argue that the authoritative text (insofar as the audience's language is Mandarin) that should be analyzed is the Chinese version. And if you ask someone that understands Chinese (see More on the "Chinese People" thread), they probably wouldn't come to the same conclusions that you come to when you are reading a translated version of the original.<BR/><BR/>I'd be happy to hear the opinion of other mandarin speakers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-66895085198262995772008-05-28T12:09:00.000+08:002008-05-28T12:09:00.000+08:00Ma forgets that HIS Chinese culture was codified b...Ma forgets that HIS Chinese culture was codified by the Blue Shirt Movement in the 1930's. His common ethnicity is not shared by most people in China and Taiwan evenly or uniformly. Confucianism has been and is being practiced differently in many places and over the course of time things change. Myth making at it's best. I'd really like to get in his head and see how a man train in law at Harvard can make such leaps in logic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-81787112373024245372008-05-27T17:44:00.000+08:002008-05-27T17:44:00.000+08:00Anon,台灣是全球唯一在中華文化土壤中,順利完成二次政黨輪替的民主範例In the English...Anon,<BR/><BR/>台灣是全球唯一在中華文化土壤中,順利完成二次政黨輪替的民主範例<BR/><BR/>In the English version this is translated as 'sole ethnic Chinese' society. '華人' is also consistently translated as 'ethnic Chinese'. So why was 兩岸人民同屬中華民族 translated as "our common Chinese heritage"? Their ONLY common Chinese heritage is cultural. It is clear that Ma intends this not in a loose political sense but in a tight ethnic one, as the English translator repeatedly substitutes. As I note in the post far above this one, KMT Chairman Wu repeated that exact phrase on arrival in China. <BR/><BR/>It's not just me, but a large number of longtime Taiwan watchers who made this observation -- and then there was the aboriginal legislator who stamped out of the speech and called a press conference. D'ya think she didn't know what Ma meant?<BR/><BR/>Ma's comments also have to be seen in light of his references to Confucian values rather than liberal democratic values. <BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-48553814493386107642008-05-27T11:27:00.000+08:002008-05-27T11:27:00.000+08:00I am Taiwanese and have been deeply disturbed by M...I am Taiwanese and have been deeply disturbed by Ma's speech. Not only did I totally disagree with the giving away the farm (sovernity) act, I was stunned by all the digs he gave DPP throughout his speech. He said he wanted a recounciliation but has actually antagonised the green supporters big time. It seems that his idea of 'reconsiliation' is that everyone just goes along with him or obeys him. <BR/><BR/>Between pleasing China and perhaps the US, is he ready to respect what Taiwanese really want and our rights? I can't deny that some people believe we can keep the status quo or become another Hong Kong (50 years of China's mercy) but there are a lot more who want to be able to make our own decisions and be ourselves. <BR/><BR/>Mr Hsieh actually said he would attend the inauguration if he was invited but Ma's invitation was just plain insincere. It looked like he considered himself superior and other people should see it as an honour to be there no matter what. Plus, Ma has gone back on almost every word he said during his campaign, proving Hsieh right, within just a few weeks (quite a record actually...) I'm toally OK with DPP figures not attending in protest. Apart from the two invitation cards with different seats assigned with no explanation sent to Hsieh, Ma claimed that he telephoned Hsieh himself on 18th May to invite Hsien to walk with him on the stage before his speech but couldn't reach Hsieh. Oh, please. If the invitation had been genuine (lets not forget this was his inauguration, not hanging out on Saturday night), would anyone phone an important guest less than 48 hours before to invite them? I give more notice than that for my dinner party! Sadly, this is how Ma plays the public and it's even sadder that some people actually buy it. <BR/><BR/>Sorry about all the whiging. I should thank you for all the info and effort you put in here. It's a pleasure reading your work :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-33461879203239928492008-05-25T00:46:00.000+08:002008-05-25T00:46:00.000+08:00What's even more interesting Patrick, is that ther...What's even more interesting Patrick, is that there is an entire constituency of "Hua Qiao" living abroad, and many have never been to Taiwan, who have representatives in the LY. Taiwan's government spends millions of taxpayer's dollars (including foreign tax payers). Yet Foreigners living in Taiwan, raising Taiwanese children like Michael, have no one to represent their interests.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-78010589986223268662008-05-24T20:51:00.000+08:002008-05-24T20:51:00.000+08:00Winston,I don't care about Dr. Smith or defamation...Winston,<BR/><BR/>I don't care about Dr. Smith or defamation. They have nothing to do with the point I'm making - that "foreigners" have just as much right to an opinion as anyone else here in Taiwan. Sadly, it often comes down to xenophobic (or racist too) nonsense with people who argue otherwise. <BR/><BR/>It's interesting to me to see first or second-generation Americans of Taiwanese descent arguing that "foreigners" in Taiwan should not have the same rights as others.Patrick Cowsillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904899672214340947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-86706762271035586342008-05-24T13:54:00.000+08:002008-05-24T13:54:00.000+08:00LOL. Guess I'll have to check Wiki next time! Than...LOL. Guess I'll have to check Wiki next time! Thanks, Foreigner.<BR/><BR/>michaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-72428164531483015062008-05-24T13:18:00.000+08:002008-05-24T13:18:00.000+08:00Didn't know that Lord Acton's dictum was originall...Didn't know that Lord Acton's dictum was originally posited in the context of religion. Checked that on Wikipedia, and by gum, you were right:<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Acton#.22Lord_Acton.27s_dictum.22<BR/><BR/>I love learning something new everyday.<BR/><BR/>(Although you may be a bit wrong that it was Acton's argument for atheism - apparently he was a Catholic who was expressing his objections to the newly-mooted doctrine of papal infallibility.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-49977189834847737992008-05-24T04:22:00.000+08:002008-05-24T04:22:00.000+08:00"According to the Constitution of the Rep. of Chin..."According to the Constitution of the Rep. of China (Taiwan), "People shall have freedom of speech, teaching, writing and publication" (Chapter II. Rights and Duties of the People, Article 11). For any local redneck….." <BR/><BR/>Patrick:<BR/><BR/>The issue of freedom of speech under both the USA constitution and the ROC constitution are extremely complicated and I fear that your citation to a seemingly simple provision of the ROC constitution will give some readers a dangerously simplistic impression of the defamation law in Taiwan. I'm no expert on Taiwan law but I think would be essentially correct to say that what constitutes protected speech in the USA is much broader than what constitutes protected speech in Taiwan. Rarely does anyone in the USA incur civil liability or jail time for something they say or write but, at least anecdotally, it seem to happens all the time in Taiwan. It even appears to me that some Taiwan politicians consider a libel conviction a sign of street credibiilty. Making a statement in public like "Dr. Smith is the worst dentist in Los Angeles" would hardly raise an eyebrow in Los Angeles but in Taiwan, Dr. Smith could sue you for libel and slander and refer you to the prosecutor's office for criminal action.Winston L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08681668516360408157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1469236331970201912008-05-24T02:47:00.000+08:002008-05-24T02:47:00.000+08:00I think if there's anyone that doesn't have a righ...I think if there's anyone that doesn't have a right to comment on Taiwan, it's people from China. All peoples have the right to self-determination, including Taiwan's. If Taiwan one day wants to unify with China, it's up to Taiwanese to decide. If Taiwan wants to remain independent, this is also up to the Taiwanese to decide.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-85504784233471874482008-05-24T00:04:00.000+08:002008-05-24T00:04:00.000+08:00Unfortunately the education system promotes/favors...Unfortunately the education system promotes/favors a selected version of an ethnic group at the expense of all others. Confucian values taught in school in Taiwan is like teaching Christian values in a US school. That is where the socializing starts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-67402934196849981342008-05-23T22:04:00.000+08:002008-05-23T22:04:00.000+08:00By the way, is it possible for an American to beco...<B>By the way, is it possible for an American to become a citizen of Taiwan?</B><BR/><BR/>Yes, several adults have, and thousands of chidren have dual citizenship, including mine. But there's an interesting double standard... if I become a citizen of ROC, I have to give up my US citizenship. But ROC citizens born here do not have to.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-35066256813186068922008-05-23T21:27:00.000+08:002008-05-23T21:27:00.000+08:00Micheal -Great reply to all these tough comments.L...Micheal -<BR/>Great reply to all these tough comments.<BR/><BR/>Live and let live - <BR/>Much respect.Bicyclesidewalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06368394132652133224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-14310525659933856332008-05-23T20:29:00.000+08:002008-05-23T20:29:00.000+08:00"For an American English teacher, you have an awfu..."For an American English teacher, you have an awful lot of political opinions on Taiwan. What do you think gives you such authority to comment on "what Taiwan should do"? <BR/><BR/>According to the Constitution of the Rep. of China (Taiwan), "People shall have freedom of speech, teaching, writing and publication" (Chapter II. Rights and Duties of the People, Article 11). For any local redneck, who still doesn't think this applies to you because of the color of your skin, etc., there is also this: "There shall be equality among the various racial groups IN the Republic of China" (Chapter I. General Provisions. Article 5). It doesn't matter if you know more or have more at stake. You can say or write whatever you want. If someone has a problem with that, let them &^%$ off to some other place.Patrick Cowsillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904899672214340947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-6809981215454464342008-05-23T17:58:00.000+08:002008-05-23T17:58:00.000+08:00You're right Chino, I should have realized that in...You're right Chino, I should have realized that in other democracies, the losing side ceases discussing politics for the next four years. How silly of me not to have noticed that!Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-39581366406510851542008-05-23T16:26:00.000+08:002008-05-23T16:26:00.000+08:00Guys ... you lost the election (assuming you are ...Guys ... you <B>lost</B> the election (assuming you are even ROC citizens to start with)<BR/><BR/>This is democracy - get over it. Come back in four years if you are so right. In the mean time, think about how much luckier you are than those Gore supporters.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16789768410489750676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-74552026327802481862008-05-23T13:23:00.000+08:002008-05-23T13:23:00.000+08:00I think the issue is that Ma was trying to please ...I think the issue is that Ma was trying to please everyone. He was clearly trying to please China and non-localisation KMT with the Zhonghua Minzu comment. You can't say that defining ethnicities that live in China or Taiwan as Zhonghua Minzu is not controversial because it implies Chinese culture and history, and there are ethnicities that may not want to take part. Imagine telling a Uighur that he is Zhonghua Minzu. Uighurs do not live in Taiwan, but the effect is the same. Why should an Ami have to be Zhonghua Minzu? Why should a Taiwanese, several generations removed from the mainland, who sees himself as distinct, have to be a Zhonghua Minzu? It is an expression of one culture claiming another. <BR/><BR/>I think Ma simply went overboard on the China pleasing in this department to the extent that he neglected the 40 percent of his own country's citizens who did not vote for him in favour of a rival, hostile government. This is a disturbing miscalculation in my mind because it shows Ma is not aware of what it takes to balance rival points of view from day 1. <BR/><BR/>In fact, in too many places in this speech, he panders to external forces over reducing tensions in his own country. Isn't this the man who is supposed to reunite Taiwan behind a common banner? Well he is totally incapable from the get go. <BR/><BR/>This term could not have been carelessly chosen.Tommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552370490869601403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-17996544000237902352008-05-23T13:04:00.000+08:002008-05-23T13:04:00.000+08:00I think you are (mostly) right. And I think that ...I think you are (mostly) right. And I think that Ma is trying to blur the distinctions to serve his political agenda. Moreover, I think you are going to see a lot of similar attempts to change the lexicon of the debate in the coming months and years. This is obviously a common political tactic in the States (e.g. “death taxes” or “pro-life”) but I think that it is especially powerful in Taiwan because many of the terms that will be resurrected were in common use during the years of martial law. This will make them detestable to some, but most may find these terms familiar and comfortable. It is hard to overstate the influence that language can have on the political debate and things will certainly change if the common vernacular ever allows your children to feel comfortable being called “chunghuaminzu.” As you are very much aware, there is no real difference at all between “chunghuaminzu” and “zhonghuaminzu”, and that is just fine with Ma.<BR/><BR/>By the way, is it possible for an American to become a citizen of Taiwan?Muckdarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11404347144285818111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-32339442221631919182008-05-23T13:02:00.000+08:002008-05-23T13:02:00.000+08:00If it is a case of a major speech merely being poo...<I>If it is a case of a major speech merely being poorly written, then the Ma administration is already filled with servants of such staggering ineptitude and blind incompetence, they will make the past 8 years of DPP look like Kennedy's staff during the Cuban Missile Crisis.</I><BR/><BR/>It is not only that the speech may be poorly written, but one would hope that Ma had the ability to see the flaws in the speech that he is presenting as his own views. From previous events that occurred during his presidential election, it seems like Ma is just a puppet saying what others want him to say.<BR/><BR/>I've been wanting to cry since the results came out and Ma was elected...I feel that "it's the end of the world/Taiwan as we know it" though many people have said that I'm too pessimistic and harsh. I guess all we can do is wait and see~Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-27348318890568140832008-05-23T12:55:00.000+08:002008-05-23T12:55:00.000+08:00Do you really think you know more, or have more at...<I>Do you really think you know more, or have more at stake, than the majority KMT-voters that grew up here their entire lives?</I><BR/><BR/>What a doofus statement. <BR/><BR/>I guess living here for 20+ years, having permanent residency, an established business and family here means nothing? Don't be such an a-hole. There are lots of expats here that are just as connected to Taiwan as you are. <BR/><BR/>The only reason we can't vote is that we have to give up our passports. On the other hand, Taiwanese can go to any other country and remain dual citizens. The Taiwan government holds a unfair double standard.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-91174038962458447872008-05-23T12:45:00.000+08:002008-05-23T12:45:00.000+08:00I think Michael has it right. It may not be intent...I think Michael has it right. It may not be intentional on Ma's part, but Chinese nationalism is rooted in this type of thinking and bias. Read Presenjit Duara's excellent analysis on Chinese nationalism in Saving History from the Nation. Frank Dikotter also illuminates Chinese nationalist concepts of "Race" in The Concept of Race in Modern China. Furthermore, to back up Michael's position, read Steve Harrell's introduction and essays in Cultural Encounters on China's Ethnic Frontiers. <BR/><BR/>Both Chinese nationalisms are rooted in proprietary forms of Han ethnic chauvinism and seek to actively transform non-Han into something "better", but at the same time prevent them from attaining equality due to their ethnic identity. <BR/><BR/>Even the definitions of Chineseness have been constructed differently by the PRC and ROC... though they are still constructions and so the state is always setting the bar. Han=modern/advanced/correct. Other= lacking/backward/incorrect... but correctable. <BR/><BR/>This is what colonialism is about here folks. The "modern Chinese state" seeking to correct the defects in those they define as "other" and make them "modern". They can never become modern because then they wouldn't be "other" anymore. The unbridgeable threshold. <BR/><BR/>Good Job Michael... Keep it coming!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com