tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post1198229254640907954..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: What is the educational system in TaiwanMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-52002044425818158212013-08-10T14:12:01.509+08:002013-08-10T14:12:01.509+08:00Greeting
I'm now a student in Taiwan
after i ...Greeting <br />I'm now a student in Taiwan<br />after i read your Post <br />its Very consistent to my Status now<br />i mean in School <br />i am high school now<br />For a Studens in Taiwan, <br />and already been eliminated <br />only solution is to<br />Use our imagination<br />Even i have been eliminated<br />i can live very exciting and free<br /> <br />Thanks for your post <br /><br />by the way can i translate your post (not all)<br />to Chinese? i will Assistant your Name<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696260779054888950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-81616944065990303052013-03-07T05:17:32.640+08:002013-03-07T05:17:32.640+08:00It's quite a hiatus between comments, but I th...It's quite a hiatus between comments, but I thought this thread symptomatic of the missing information in discussions about education. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezTIYd5UFRYopithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01621946866211400380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-84567637537446509492007-10-10T09:42:00.001+08:002007-10-10T09:42:00.001+08:00i love sean 's comment about 'weeding out' listen ...i love sean 's comment about 'weeding out' listen sweetheart I'm one of those and i really hate this pooor child arguments i joined the army because i had no money, I now have an MA pai for by the gov't and I teach for the govt'. <BR/><BR/>Taiwanese or Chinese kids aren't any smarter either, they just study more. That's all. <BR/><BR/>Why do you people have kids that's the next logical question? Is the world not all ready screwed up enough for them? Are you that selfish that you need a clone like creature? Beleive me, most of the teccers i've met should be castrated and not allowed to spawn.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-29816857042264805512007-10-07T03:27:00.000+08:002007-10-07T03:27:00.000+08:00NCLB is forcing positive change in my school distr...NCLB is forcing positive change in my school district for students who pre-NCLB were left out of early efforts at accountability testing: special ed (ie students with learning disabilities) and ESL students. more teachers are being hired, reading programs with proven results are being adopted, etc.<BR/><BR/>my husband has tourette's which is often linked with OCD and acting out. his father left the family when he was two. he was put in the fang niu ban ('put the cow' class or maybe we can call it the 'holding pen' class). kids there just smoked and played cards. at 14 they went out to the factories. my husband is 44, so the system may be different now. he did become a liu mang.<BR/><BR/>taiwan and other countries that make no effort to teach their learning disabled population are wasting potential while at the same time creating social problems.<BR/><BR/>i am a teacher and deal with spec ed and esl kids in the US. i can not adequately describe the feeling i get when i turn around a child who has been a discipline problem (because he is frustrated academically) into a happy kid who looks forward to school. and no matter what the IQ of a student, any student can grow to have a love of learning. i have seen it happen. the US has the right goals/ideals, although we don't always reach them. i don't know if Taiwan has changed to care about its learning disabled students or not. anybody know?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-34372628900376647612007-10-06T22:56:00.000+08:002007-10-06T22:56:00.000+08:00Thanks for the reply Mark,.. in which case I will ...Thanks for the reply Mark,<BR/>.. in which case I will be following your blog more closely to keep informed out about your linguistic and comparative-educational personal assumptions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-11555930613595303862007-10-06T20:38:00.000+08:002007-10-06T20:38:00.000+08:00Johan, you've made too many assumptions. If you r...Johan, you've made too many assumptions. <BR/><BR/>If you read the comments on my blog post that this one of Michael's is responding to, you'll see that math is NOT the only area in which Taiwanese students are ahead (though it is an important one). Music and art were almost completely missing from my public schooling in the US, but I've never met <I>any</I> students here who haven't gotten classes in both. Foreign language classes weren't required at all in any of my public schooling in the US until college. Obviously, Taiwanese students are ahead in that regard, too.<BR/><BR/>I should also point out that I've had a fair amount of contact with students who don't go to any cram schools at all. I <I>have</I> met poorer students via charity work, and in my experience, they seem to be doing better academically than similarly poor people I worked with back home.<BR/><BR/>One other thing I should mention is that in my first year here, I met some foreigners with kids who had gone all the way through high school in the local PUBLIC school system, and done so with good results.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652288045145591799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-83150525060048358412007-10-06T20:20:00.000+08:002007-10-06T20:20:00.000+08:00Mike, I think school education here has good recor...Mike, I think school education here has good record in allowing brilliant kids in lower socio-economic family to have better chance to get into white collar profession or become government employees and this form the basis of bureaucratic and education system. China has been doing this for hundred years so rich people will not grow too much to endanger the ruling royal family or previously KMT. And this also explain why the education system here train students Y/N and not free thinking and logics. Because it inherited what in the past , education is but a means to control the empire. <BR/>In US , top education becomes a gathering or club of the wealthy. I don't think there can be much difference for the average or lower. <BR/>If you don't want to spend too much money on education, You can take advantage of this by having children educated up to high school here (need to choose public school in good neighborhood ) and send them back to US for college and higher . <BR/>I think most important is in advance having a rough idea about what you think or expect your children to be and where they will most likely spend their life in . May be difficult. I always emphasize to my children languages and interpersonal skills and really not much on academic achievement. <BR/>KenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-42887058568790625632007-10-06T18:39:00.000+08:002007-10-06T18:39:00.000+08:00Mark wrote:"Despite the complaints I hear from par...Mark wrote:<BR/><BR/>"Despite the complaints I hear from parents about the public schools here, the achievements I see in my nine and ten year-old students are so far ahead of what my peers in the US were doing at that age that it's almost shocking."<BR/><BR/>Do you admire in Taiwan what you basically lack in the US, and just for that reason: sufficient students with high math grades? <BR/><BR/>If you have the money - as a parent and foreigner - to send your children to a good, often private school, do you spare a thought on why some other members of the public might complain?<BR/><BR/>I'll give a hint:<BR/>About half of Taiwan's schools are private, not public. Private schools charge high tuition fees. Add to this the economic pressure on parents to send their children to buxibans. Taiwan's poor cannot give their children what you or your students' parents can give yours.<BR/><BR/>The private school and cram school practice allows the governement here to lower their committment to public schools. The MOE is even pressuring rural schools to close, forcing rural (read 'poorer') children to go to school in a distant town, adding more financial pressure to their parents.<BR/><BR/>I doubt that the students Marc talks about are poor. I've read and heard similar comments before, from overseas Taiwanese or foreigners.<BR/>Have a GOOD look around you, however, beyond buxibans and private schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-8944079526108583312007-10-06T14:51:00.000+08:002007-10-06T14:51:00.000+08:00Mark, it's easy to locate failures and disparaties...Mark, it's easy to locate failures and disparaties in the US system. But the US system does not have as its implicit goal the elimination of students. Up until the reforms a few years back, students who failed the test in junior high <I>didn't go on</I>. Hence all those comparisons between the US system and the local system were the purest bullshit, since they didn't -- and don't -- include the bottom.<BR/><BR/>In the US "weeding out" is a result of pernicious social problems. Here it is the goal of the System. And a lot more kids get weeded out -- arguably, the 80% who don't get into the academic track. <BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-87125238477171090682007-10-06T13:14:00.000+08:002007-10-06T13:14:00.000+08:00If you hate the idea of weaker students being weed...If you hate the idea of weaker students being weeded out by schools, then the US is the place for you. I had high school classmates who never really got a hang of basic algebra, and who had difficulties reading a newspaper. And they <I>still</I> graduated.<BR/><BR/>The true "weeding out" in poorer US schools is via violence and prison sentences.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652288045145591799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-50919872638097215152007-10-06T09:46:00.000+08:002007-10-06T09:46:00.000+08:00I'm reminded of a study I read comparing math scor...I'm reminded of a study I read comparing math scores between American and Japanese students (Taiwan's educational system is very similar to, and in many ways derived from, Japan's so it's a relevant comparison). It showed that while Japanese students' scores were higher on average, American students displayed a much greater range. In other words, those American students with low scores did very poorly at math, while those with scores at the upper end of the scale are the ones likely to major in math at college and win Nobel prizes and so on. The scores of the vast majority of the Japanese students, in contrast, were bunched together in a narrow range roughly in the middle between the American extremes. The Japanese educational system (and the Taiwanese one too, probably) is producing individuals with sufficient math skills for daily life, but is less likely to give the world its future mathematicians.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-51435794075905645532007-10-06T08:57:00.000+08:002007-10-06T08:57:00.000+08:00Still, I know an awful lot of people who grew up h...<B>Still, I know an awful lot of people who grew up here, moved to the US and did extremely well in US colleges. Not all of them went to cram schools, either.</B><BR/><BR/>Of course!Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-33460024046646595462007-10-06T03:58:00.000+08:002007-10-06T03:58:00.000+08:00Wow, very well put, Michael. This unsurprisingly)...Wow, very well put, Michael. This unsurprisingly)sounds very, very much like the educational system in mainland China, and from what I hear, like education in much of Asia. I've seen many of those jaded, unmotivated, depressed students that were weeded out. It's sad and very difficult to reach them.<BR/><BR/>lee-sean: Don't know about TW, but in the mainland your family has to pay for tuition starting with middle school, I believe. If you don't have the money, too bad! Get to work! Many of the kids I see didn't even get to go to high school. If you can pay, the school you go to depends on where you live (nowadays anyway). Richer areas tend to have richer, better schools. Really, that aspect is much like the US. Of course, richer parents can, like you said, afford better tutors and whatnot as well.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03382948793839676990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-35810447301486668902007-10-06T02:34:00.000+08:002007-10-06T02:34:00.000+08:00I hated that system, even though I was a successfu...I hated that system, even though I was a successful competitor in that system.<BR/><BR/>Now, I am a father of kids of both extremes (very smart and very challenging), I fully understand the reason I hated it. It is *not* for normal or under-normal kids.<BR/><BR/>The "weeding system" is such a good term for this.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that no parents think their kids could possibly be the weed. Only the others' kids are weeds. As a result, all focus is on the "good" kids, not on the left-over kids.<BR/><BR/>It is a very sick system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-65257620321560201042007-10-06T02:17:00.000+08:002007-10-06T02:17:00.000+08:00I once thought if I ever have kids I will have the...I once thought if I ever have kids I will have them send to Taiwan. However after meeting some American educated Chinese, I realize US education is far better for my kids. Because I believe, my kids will never be like David Liu if I send them back regardless how good they are at math.<BR/><BR/>Nobel prize is next week, I think a Chinese is getting it in Chemistry. I could be wrong though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-50037705385472556282007-10-06T01:54:00.000+08:002007-10-06T01:54:00.000+08:00I wonder how much the fact that my buxiban specifi...I wonder how much the fact that my buxiban specifically <I>doesn't</I> emphasize Ministry of Education vocabulary lists, or GEPTs affects the kinds of kids I get. Some of their well-roundedness may be self-selecting. <BR/><BR/>Still, I know an awful lot of people who grew up here, moved to the US and did <I>extremely</I> well in US colleges. Not all of them went to cram schools, either.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09652288045145591799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-84867086162692709192007-10-05T22:44:00.000+08:002007-10-05T22:44:00.000+08:00I would be interested to know a bit more about the...I would be interested to know a bit more about the socio-economic dimension of the educational system in Taiwan. For example, in the US, many economically disadvantaged students are already "weeded out" by the educational system before they even start school because of the vast disparities in instructional quality in different areas based on wealth. I imagine that that Taiwanese students from richer families could afford the better cram schools, thus giving them better possibilities for advancement (and also thwarting any illusions of a a class-neutral meritocracy). Anyway, I would love to hear your comments about socio-economic class and education in Taiwan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-31896643612046933052007-10-05T20:08:00.000+08:002007-10-05T20:08:00.000+08:00No, political. An uninterested populace has obviou...No, political. An uninterested populace has obvious political effects.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-62915825976482288222007-10-05T20:02:00.000+08:002007-10-05T20:02:00.000+08:00"The political effects of this system should not b..."The political effects of this system should not be overlooked. Students who do not do well often end up demoralized, uninterested in the world, and lacking in motivation to learn on their own, since they've been taught that education is hell and learning is not education (it's a weeding out process that weeded them out). The time demands are vast and inherently authoritarian: young people in class until 11 do not have leisure time for political action and growth, and parents who must oversee them every night and on weekends also have their time for political activity severely constrained"<BR/><BR/>Did you mean to use "social", not "political"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com