tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post8613816354400027989..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: ECFA protest reporting round upMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-95012930999206652010-07-01T16:23:19.590+08:002010-07-01T16:23:19.590+08:00@Jason -- Dude, I was there, but I didn't get ...@Jason -- Dude, I <i><b>was</b></i> there, but I didn't get around enough to get a good personal estimate of the crowd size. Check out some photos I took just as the rain began but before the bulk of the crowd arrived at Ketagalan Blvd.:<br />* <a href="http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2852/626subengone.jpg" title="史明" rel="nofollow">Su Beng 1</a><br />* <a href="http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/903/626subengtwo.jpg" title="史明" rel="nofollow">Su Beng 2</a><br />* <a href="http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9076/mediaat626protest.jpg" title="Near the stage on Ketagalan Blvd." rel="nofollow">Media covering the 626 protest</a><br />* <a href="http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7342/626protestersintherain.jpg" title="This is before the rain *really* started to pour" rel="nofollow">Protesters in the rain</a><br />* <a href="http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9432/policewatchthe626protes.jpg" title="I always feel like... somebody's watching me" rel="nofollow">Surveilling the protesters from atop the MOFA building</a><br /><br /><a href="http://taiwanmatters.blogspot.com/" title="Taiwan Matters!" rel="nofollow">Tim Maddog</a>Tim Maddoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16943522529132663780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-55555462771991586652010-07-01T11:53:38.434+08:002010-07-01T11:53:38.434+08:00Tim Maddog said
BTW, both Apple Daily and Liberty...Tim Maddog said<br /><br /><b>BTW, both Apple Daily and Liberty Times put the attendance of Saturday's rally at 150,000, and while I can't be sure what the actual figure was, Apple Daily isn't going to put a "green spin on matters," that's for sure. (Click the links for screenshots of the articles in question.)</b><br /><br />Dude, if you had have come out from behind your computer and actually gone to it, you'd know full well that they'd didn't get close to 150 000. 50000 would be closer to the mark.Jasonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-56046410667998388382010-07-01T00:01:01.320+08:002010-07-01T00:01:01.320+08:00Arty you are pure comedy Gold. TVBS is a Chinese o...<b>Arty you are pure comedy Gold. TVBS is a Chinese owned station that consistently underestimates the Green support. So you are right, they are unreliable, but not in the direction you need.</b><br /><br />LOL, you think the anon is me? I thought you can see people's IP. I hate anon post, unlike people trying to post anon even in his own blog.<br /><br />Considering you don't post my post, I don't know what are you thinking? Got your Ph.D. yet? The person who is debating with you guys is not me. I give up already. Heck, your well being is least of my concern. :P You paid the price of your action. Taiwan is not going to be doomed by a "Chinese." History is full of irony, my bet is a "Taiwanese" president eventually sold out Taiwan (maybe Chen's son at this rate lol).Artynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-91628627244942224722010-06-30T22:05:57.010+08:002010-06-30T22:05:57.010+08:00For example:
- - -
However, I agree that it is a l...<b>For example:<br />- - -<br />However, I agree that it is a loaded question so I did not quote it.<br />- - -<br /><br />You didn't quote the question, but you did quote the answer (as if the question had merely asked "ECFA: Yes or no?") in an attempt at blue spin. How much more dishonest can you get?</b><br /><br />Maddog, I did not quote that poll. Please carefully read the link again.<br />http://www.gvm.com.tw/gvsrc/201003_GVSRC_others.pdf<br /><br />You will note there are two polls. One that asks if the the respondents support the signing of ECFA or not (which gives support at 46.2%) and another which asks if the government should sign ECFA if it is in Taiwan's overall interest (which gives the higher figure of 51.1%).<br /><br />Now go back and carefully read my posts. You will notice I only quoted the former poll. This is the relevant passage:<br /><br /><b>The most recent Global Views opinion poll has 46.2% in favour and 35.9% against. The question is simple and unbiased: "Should the government sign ECFA with the mainland?" The lead is a quite resounding 11 percentage points<br />(Global Views might lean blue but their polls are fairly reliable, in 2008 they overestimated Ma's support only by around 2%.).</b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36309569445177905152010-06-30T20:44:48.276+08:002010-06-30T20:44:48.276+08:00To Curious,
Solution 1: Simple, don't sign an...To Curious,<br /><br />Solution 1: Simple, don't sign any shit. The current situation works fine for Taiwan. Taiwan's economic problem is not about free trade. Japan does not have FTA with the US still the trade valume between them is huge. There is no rule that says you have to sign FTA to have trade and prosper.<br /><br />Solution 2: Sign stuffs that is not called FTA with others under WTO platform. For example, with the US, the problem preventing a FTA is not so much about China, but about the trade issue existing between Taiwan and the US. The deal might or might not work out however because the US has its own interests and Taiwan has its own interests, just like in any negotiation. The point is to seek out countries and sign pacts that can benefit both side.<br /><br />Also something worth to note on is whether Japan and the US will now actually put more restriction on the high tech export to Taiwan because Taiwan is moving closer to China. Japan and the US still guard China carefully and protect their own intellectual properties and natural resources from Chinese firms frequently. Now that Taiwan is moving closer to China with ECFA, I wonder if Taiwan would loss some potential future partnership with Japan and the US. If that is the case then Taiwan is really screwed.Dixteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05689510846926854542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-69261265659980415792010-06-30T16:15:24.281+08:002010-06-30T16:15:24.281+08:00@ "On a referendum which asks: "Should t...@ "On a referendum which asks: "Should the government sign an ECFA with China?" 42% would say "Yes" while 44% would say "No.""<br /><br />Just to clarify, the fine print in the poll question specifies that this is among people who would go to vote at a referendum (在會去投公投的民眾中), not the population as a whole. Kind of makes that 42% stand out. Not to say that they're right, of course.<br /><br />But three cheers for the idea of some legitimate polling in Taiwan, with clear questions, neutral financing and neutral analysis. Actually, I guess Taiwan could just use a real newspaper or t.v. news station.Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-64899422995181313392010-06-30T15:48:35.387+08:002010-06-30T15:48:35.387+08:00Anonymous 11:20 AM got only one thing right:
- - -...Anonymous 11:20 AM got only one thing right:<br />- - -<br /><i>That is a TVBS poll.</i><br>- - -<br /><br />Right -- it wasn't <i>Global Views</i>. That's my mistake. However, everything else <i>you</i> say seems to be purposely dishonest.<br /><br />For example:<br />- - -<br /><i>However, I agree that it is a loaded question so I did not quote it.</i><br>- - -<br /><br />You didn't quote the question, but you <i>did</i> quote the answer (as if the question had merely asked "ECFA: Yes or no?") in an attempt at blue spin. How much more dishonest can you get?<br /><br /><a href="http://taiwanmatters.blogspot.com/" title="Taiwan Matters!" rel="nofollow">Tim Maddog</a>Tim Maddoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16943522529132663780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-85645007867831874182010-06-30T15:10:23.962+08:002010-06-30T15:10:23.962+08:00"But from the times I've had discussions ..."But from the times I've had discussions with 20 and 30 somethings, I've walked away a bit discouraged and amazed at how little they know about what is going on in their own government."<br /><br><br><br />Perhaps ignoring the news is the only way they can maintain their mental health given how quicklty their government is betraying them and how little they can do about it.<br /><br><br><br />I find I do that with Obama in charge, and he's just impoverishing my children, not actually selling them into foreign slavery.readinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-56154733104220704572010-06-30T12:01:05.206+08:002010-06-30T12:01:05.206+08:00That is a TVBS poll. They are notoriously unreliab...<b>That is a TVBS poll. They are notoriously unreliable. According to another TVBS poll from that link, 41% say they support signing ECFA and 34% say they are opposed. However, when it comes to people who say they would vote in a referendum, the opposition has a 2 point lead. I guess this has to be explained by the fact that the opponents to ECFA are better mobilized. Still, the vast majority of polls show support for ECFA.</b><br /><br />Arty you are pure comedy Gold. TVBS is a Chinese owned station that consistently underestimates the Green support. So you are right, they are unreliable, but not in the direction you need.<br /><br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-68493317559884955152010-06-30T11:20:46.395+08:002010-06-30T11:20:46.395+08:00Turton's assistant spinner spun:
Got link? No...Turton's assistant spinner spun:<br /><br /><b>Got link? No, wait! I do. Michael wrote about that back on March 23, 2010 -- over three months ago -- quoting the loaded question used in that poll:<br />- - -<br />"if there are overall benefits for Taiwan then the government should sign it"<br />- - -</b><br /><br />Yes, I have a link.<br />http://www.gvm.com.tw/gvsrc/201003_GVSRC_others.pdf<br /><br />The question that asks "if there are overall benefits for Taiwan then the government should sign ECFA" gives a higher level of support (51%). However, I agree that it is a loaded question so I did not quote it.<br /><br /><b><br />Got spin?<br /><br />Here is what I would be more likely to call "the most recent Global Views poll": one from May 31, 2010 [translation mine]:<br />- - -<br />公投題目「是否同意政府與中國簽ECFA?」:同意 42% v.s.不同意44%<br /><br />On a referendum which asks: "Should the government sign an ECFA with China?" 42% would say "Yes" while 44% would say "No."<br />- - -<br /><br />Is that somehow a "green spin on matters"?</b><br /><br />That is a TVBS poll. They are notoriously unreliable. According to another TVBS poll from that link, 41% say they support signing ECFA and 34% say they are opposed. However, when it comes to people who say they would vote in a referendum, the opposition has a 2 point lead. I guess this has to be explained by the fact that the opponents to ECFA are better mobilized. Still, the vast majority of polls show support for ECFA. You are simply cherry picking the one poll that shows a slight lead for the opposition.<br /><br /><b>BTW, both Apple Daily and Liberty Times put the attendance of Saturday's rally at 150,000, and while I can't be sure what the actual figure was, Apple Daily isn't going to put a "green spin on matters," that's for sure. (Click the links for screenshots of the articles in question.)</b><br /><br />I doubt there were 150,000 there. The Apple Daily likes to exaggerate everything. Even if there were 150,000, that would still be a pretty weak turnout given that the green supporters are telling us that this is a huge "sell out" to China.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-54182237239023262802010-06-29T23:41:47.481+08:002010-06-29T23:41:47.481+08:00Anonymous 5:42 PM spun:
- - -
The most recent Glob...Anonymous 5:42 PM spun:<br />- - -<br /><i>The most recent Global Views opinion poll has 46.2% in favour and 35.9% against.</i><br>- - -<br /><br />Got link? No, wait! I do. <a href="http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2010/03/does-public-like-ecfa.html" title="''Does the public like ECFA?''" rel="nofollow">Michael wrote about that back on March 23, 2010</a> -- over three months ago -- quoting the <b>loaded question</b> used in that poll:<br />- - -<br /><i>"<b>if there are overall benefits for Taiwan</b> then the government should sign it"</i><br>- - -<br /><br />Got spin?<br /><br /><i>Here</i> is what I would be more likely to call "the most recent <i>Global Views</i> poll": <a href="http://www.tvbs.com.tw/FILE_DB/DL_DB/doshouldo/201006/doshouldo-20100601201132.pdf" title="Yes, the *pro-blue* Global Views..." rel="nofollow">one from May 31, 2010</a> [translation mine]:<br />- - -<br />公投題目「是否同意政府與中國簽ECFA?」:同意42% v.s.不同意44%<br /><br />On a referendum which asks: "Should the government sign an ECFA with China?" 42% would say "Yes" while 44% would say "No."<br />- - -<br /><br />Is that somehow a "green spin on matters"?<br /><br />BTW, both <a href="http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8872/appledaily150000.jpg" title="反ECFA 15萬人雨中遊行" rel="nofollow"><i>Apple Daily</i></a> and <a href="http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8109/libertytimes150000.jpg" title="15萬人怒吼 反ECFA護台灣" rel="nofollow"><i>Liberty Times</i></a> put the attendance of Saturday's rally at 150,000, and while I can't be sure what the actual figure was, <i>Apple Daily</i> isn't going to put a "green spin on matters," that's for sure. (Click the links for screenshots of the articles in question.)<br /><br /><a href="http://taiwanmatters.blogspot.com/" title="Taiwan Matters!" rel="nofollow">Tim Maddog</a>Tim Maddoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16943522529132663780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-360126069331172262010-06-29T23:23:45.213+08:002010-06-29T23:23:45.213+08:00I don't know what information the don't kn...<b>I don't know what information the don't knows require. My experience is that a large chunk of don't knows are closeted Greens. It doesn't really matter. The KMT wants the sell out, as does China, so the wishes of the people are really irrelevant.</b><br /><br />No you are wrong. Taiwan is a democracy. If the KMT doesn't have power it cannot sign any agreements with China. Ma was elected on a clear platform of concluding a deal on economic cooperation in action. Where is the "sell out"?<br /><br />I also doubt that most of the "don't knows" are "closet greens". They are probably more light blues in this group. Compare Hsieh's 41% in 2008 and 35% opposition to ECFA, with Ma's 58% and 46% support for ECFA. <br />Anyway whichever way you look at it, the supporters of ECFA have a substantial lead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-59235334484258409412010-06-29T23:16:20.439+08:002010-06-29T23:16:20.439+08:00Have the DPP put forth a realistic, workable alter...Have the DPP put forth a realistic, workable alternative? Something that other nations would accept even if China didn't? If so, what is it?<br /><br />(Serious answers please).Curiousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-86044016222679014222010-06-29T21:34:09.117+08:002010-06-29T21:34:09.117+08:00I don't know what information the don't kn...I don't know what information the don't knows require. My experience is that a large chunk of don't knows are closeted Greens. It doesn't really matter. The KMT wants the sell out, as does China, so the wishes of the people are really irrelevant.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-61498488822048619212010-06-29T17:42:27.047+08:002010-06-29T17:42:27.047+08:00With far more truth, you could write:
What the pr...<b>With far more truth, you could write:<br /><br />What the pro-China crowd has a hard time admitting is that the support for ECFA is just not very strong. The polls indicate support in the 40s or high 30s and opposition in the mid-30s, with don't-knows in the 30s as well. The majority of people have thought about ECFA, and on balance concluded that it is either not Taiwan's interests to sign, or that they don't have the information they need.<br /><br />The reality is that the polling on ECFA is just awful, with questions poorly framed and severely lacking in detail.<br /></b><br /><br />Well that is definitely a green spin on matters. <br />The most recent Global Views opinion poll has 46.2% in favour and 35.9% against. The question is simple and unbiased: "Should the government sign ECFA with the mainland?" The lead is a quite resounding 11 percentage points<br />(Global Views might lean blue but their polls are fairly reliable, in 2008 they overestimated Ma's support only by around 2%.).<br /><br />As for the "don't knows", there is plenty of information available on ECFA. There has been a television debate. What more information do they require?<br /><br />I would say that lack of information is not the problem. People still understandably have doubts, but when pressed many of them will swing in support. They certainly can't be classed as opponents as this blog likes to do.<br /><br />Whichever way you look at it opposition to ECFA is weak and the turnout at DPP rallies has been very low. Tsai has not effectively made the case against ECFA or put forward any viable alternatives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-18943199441762996802010-06-29T14:33:53.112+08:002010-06-29T14:33:53.112+08:00What the greens have a hard time admitting is that...<b>What the greens have a hard time admitting is that the opposition to ECFA is just not very strong. The polls indicate support in the high 40s and opposition only in the mid-30s. Many people have thought about ECFA, and on balance concluded that it is in Taiwan's interests to sign.</b><br /><br />With far more truth, you could write: <br /><br /><i>What the pro-China crowd has a hard time admitting is that the support for ECFA is just not very strong. The polls indicate support in the 40s or high 30s and opposition in the mid-30s, with don't-knows in the 30s as well. The majority of people have thought about ECFA, and on balance concluded that it is either not Taiwan's interests to sign, or that they don't have the information they need.</i><br /><br />The reality is that the polling on ECFA is just awful, with questions poorly framed and severely lacking in detail. <br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-71404048974354748322010-06-29T14:24:11.518+08:002010-06-29T14:24:11.518+08:00I'm sure there are many of you who come into c...<b>I'm sure there are many of you who come into contact day to day with more students and/or young adults than I.<br /><br />But from the times I've had discussions with 20 and 30 somethings, I've walked away a bit discouraged and amazed at how little they know about what is going on in their own government. I guess the same can be said most everywhere but few places have as much at stake.<br /><br />If there isn't a cctv tape of a purse snatcher, motorcycle thief, or some other entertaining and dramatic event on the TV news, they don't seem to be interested.<br /><br />I recently asked a lady (university grad) around 43 what she thought of the meetings and she said, "I haven't followed this very much". She wasn't adverse to talking about it, she's just been too busy to take time to ponder it. I mean really.<br /><br />While I suspect there will always be sheep in every society, the collective apathy that I seem to feel from the population in general here and the lack of student involvement, whose careers and livelihoods are potentially on the line, NOT to mention a small thing like their freedom is puzzling.<br /><br />The squeaky wheel gets the grease always. Something must spark their interest to cause them to raise their concern. </b><br /><br />Apathetic? I don't think so. The level of political engagement in Taiwan is actually remarkably high. Polls indicate that 40% of Taiwanese watched the ECFA debate. This maybe an overestimate, but still an amazing amount of people who gave up their Sunday afternoon to watch a TV debate about an economic cooperation deal.<br /><br />What the greens have a hard time admitting is that the opposition to ECFA is just not very strong. The polls indicate support in the high 40s and opposition only in the mid-30s. Many people have thought about ECFA, and on balance concluded that it is in Taiwan's interests to sign.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-4922003474093274902010-06-29T09:15:59.580+08:002010-06-29T09:15:59.580+08:00If I were the DPP, I'd be worried. Not so much...If I were the DPP, I'd be worried. Not so much about ECFA, but the lack of support for the protests against it. The first talked about getting a million people to the protest, then after the dramatically lower than expected turnout to the sit-in and the Kaohsiung event, they dropped the expected number to 200 000 and then 100 000. And they ended up with less than that.<br /><br />Taiwanese citizens may not like ECFA, but unless the DPP can offer a workable and realistic alternative, which they haven't so far, instead of simply being opposed to it, they'll be missing a golden opportunity to take back power. Which, at the end of the day is what it's all about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-92152418896913227222010-06-28T22:39:27.990+08:002010-06-28T22:39:27.990+08:00I'm trying to rattle cages at the BBC about th...I'm trying to rattle cages at the BBC about their complete lack of understanding of Taiwanese history.<br /><br />Also, I took pictures and posted them on Demotix:<br /><br />http://www.demotix.com/news/367577/rally-against-efca-taipeiDave Hodgkinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06956431715346548490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1601568226933572112010-06-28T18:00:31.005+08:002010-06-28T18:00:31.005+08:00I'm sure there are many of you who come into c...I'm sure there are many of you who come into contact day to day with more students and/or young adults than I. <br /><br />But from the times I've had discussions with 20 and 30 somethings, I've walked away a bit discouraged and amazed at how little they know about what is going on in their own government. I guess the same can be said most everywhere but few places have as much at stake. <br /><br />If there isn't a cctv tape of a purse snatcher, motorcycle thief, or some other entertaining and dramatic event on the TV news, they don't seem to be interested.<br /><br />I recently asked a lady (university grad) around 43 what she thought of the meetings and she said, "I haven't followed this very much". She wasn't adverse to talking about it, she's just been too busy to take time to ponder it. I mean really. <br /><br />While I suspect there will always be sheep in every society, the collective apathy that I seem to feel from the population in general here and the lack of student involvement, whose careers and livelihoods are potentially on the line, NOT to mention a small thing like their freedom is puzzling. <br /><br />The squeaky wheel gets the grease always. Something must spark their interest to cause them to raise their concern.Sagenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-68998100350144602322010-06-28T17:09:19.002+08:002010-06-28T17:09:19.002+08:00George Orwell writing in 1940:
"The English ...George Orwell writing in 1940:<br /><br />"The English can probably not be bullied into surrender, but they might quite easily be bored, cajoled or cheated into it, provided that, as at Munich, they did not know that they were surrendering. It could happen most easily when the war seemed to be going well rather than badly."<br /><br />Something to bear in mind when we see Vincent Siew touch down from Chongqing later this week with a scrap of paper in his hand and a shit-eating grin on his faceDonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-78482726749065178652010-06-28T15:58:17.061+08:002010-06-28T15:58:17.061+08:00I actually went to the protests myself. There are...I actually went to the protests myself. There are a lot of people, but indeed not a lot of young people (there are some, but comparing to the other middle age and old people, they are the absolute minority). I have 3 thoughts regarding this:<br /><br />1. I think there are some students (or young people) that sense the danger, but they don't express them outside or in protest. This is in Taipei city afterall, where more pan green supporters choose to be silent in workplace or in school. They are more likely to express their opinion on the internet.<br /><br />2. To get these young people to join, you have to create a group (or network) effect. I feel that young people are less likely to join on their own. You have to create a group or club in which these young people can both agree and identify with. Then they are more likely to join the protest in these groups. This is especially true in Taiwan IMO.<br /><br />3. Some young people might not like the atmosphere of protest itself perhaps, even though they support DPP's cause. Therefore, don't get discourage by them not showing, because they could contribute in other ways.Dixteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05689510846926854542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-63799087892082304752010-06-28T12:51:33.298+08:002010-06-28T12:51:33.298+08:00Regardless if it's 35,000 or 150,000 it is nev...Regardless if it's 35,000 or 150,000 it is never enough. <br /><br />The apathy among university students reminds me of the 8 years of the Bush administration and the deafening silence on American college campuses. <br /><br />To hell with the DPP and/or any other political party, where are the voices of the students that face a future of possibly saluting a CCP flag.Sagenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-55121709918820345412010-06-28T11:43:06.150+08:002010-06-28T11:43:06.150+08:00Also, as maddog notes, there is no official figure...Also, as maddog notes, there is no official figure, the cops get it by calling the local police station, which has no authority to give it out.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-2418929115677514842010-06-28T11:42:32.845+08:002010-06-28T11:42:32.845+08:0032,000 is about half of who were there, but 150,00...32,000 is about half of who were there, but 150,000 is ridiculous. I wish the pan-Greens would stop exaggerating, it gives the lowball police figures credibility, and makes them look bad.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.com