tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post7904731455100526835..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: Tsai Ing-wen's Speech at Taiwan Brain Trust/Project 2049 ConfMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-41245197459601819902010-07-29T16:39:48.838+08:002010-07-29T16:39:48.838+08:00The beef thing, Michael; to love America is to set...The beef thing, Michael; to love America is to set the decent standard for both parties. It is a legitimate way to rectify the problem.<br /><br />I am a food scientist; look at the next generation of baby boom's meal plan; early diabetes, high blood pressure, short longivity of American new generation- Michell Obama has to be busy for a while.<br /><br />I tell you; Taiwan can help America a lot- you don't believe?<br /><br />DPP need to have new vocie to American people; we don't need to be patronized by you- we like to creat a better common future with you. Help us this way, and we will help you also.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16981393473889905686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-76578203050541248042010-07-29T16:17:27.659+08:002010-07-29T16:17:27.659+08:00Please note that my comment for DPP is to combine ...Please note that my comment for DPP is to combine the program to communicate with American people who I've rated much credible than the politicians in White House. Barack Obama was a successful case by generating effective internet connections with the young generation. It seems that Michael is the first one to work with- to save one is to save America entire. : -)<br /><br />Perhaps Michael is too old to convince? Please take a break and listen the music of Sarah Bright man’s “The Music of the Night” forget the stereotype politics which has brought America down for several decades! Moral bailout- number one job; Taiwan can help. Because Taiwan has suffered as chosen people long enough. Sigh…<br /><br />For for Ching Dynasty’ matter; why just tell the guy to bandage women’s feet again, therefore chauvinistic Chinese would enjoy the frail pose of their women- the most “vibrant” civilization they will bring to 21st century. LOL.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16981393473889905686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-68186648716840728542010-07-29T13:40:11.895+08:002010-07-29T13:40:11.895+08:00"So now is a good time to stop, doncha think?...<b>"So now is a good time to stop, doncha think?"<br /><br />The Penguins in Antarctica will be very happy to hear this.</b><br /><br />LOL. When people play silly "You're a hypocrite!" games serious responses are not necessary.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-25516976063672961612010-07-29T13:37:42.915+08:002010-07-29T13:37:42.915+08:00I'm just trying to say that this way of speaki...<b>I'm just trying to say that this way of speaking won't work when the DPP comes to power and they'd best clue themselves, and their supporters, into that fact. Then it will be "confrontational". If you don't want to dance to China's tune, at least consider being coquettish about it. "Well, I don't know. I have a boyfriend. Let's give it some time."</b><br /><br />I think Tsai knows this.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-30714448582746491012010-07-29T12:09:39.719+08:002010-07-29T12:09:39.719+08:00"So now is a good time to stop, doncha think?..."So now is a good time to stop, doncha think?"<br /><br />The Penguins in Antarctica will be very happy to hear this.Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-9718629109140688002010-07-29T11:56:23.799+08:002010-07-29T11:56:23.799+08:00You suggest that Chinese expansionism to re-create...<b>You suggest that Chinese expansionism to re-create the perceived or actual frontiers of the Qing state is illegitimate. I would query whether you also believe that, for instance, the current integration of Scotland and Northern Ireland (both remnants of the British Empire) into the United Kingdom or, indeed, the continued US presence in Hawaii and Alaska (acquired during the Manifest Destiny phase of American colonialism) are likewise illegitimate and thereby up for review.</b><br /><br />Of course they would be. And? Is there strong local sentiment to be disabused of their American citizenship? Like Puerto Rico, their perfectly legal independence movement gets periodic referendums. Can't recall any for Tibet or East Turkestan.<br /><br /><b>. There is no large state in existence today which has not come about as a result of some kind of expansionism.</b><br /><br />Bingo. So now is a good time to stop, doncha think?Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-68689382804909990262010-07-29T11:22:06.426+08:002010-07-29T11:22:06.426+08:00@Michael
Argh, where to start. Look, I do agree ...@Michael<br /><br />Argh, where to start. Look, I do agree with you that someone, preferably everyone, should stand up to China's little hissy-fits. So this speech and most everything you say here gets my vote on that end. But you have to find ways of doing it constructively. You say Ma "coopted" the DPP line. OK, but he changed the content of it by changing its form, putting it into amenable frameworks like the "Three No's" and soft talk about peace treaties being "premature".<br /><br />Last week in these pages, "mike the libertarian" was hounded out of town for espousing an extreme idealism at odds with "history". From my perspective, you're doing something similar. I'm not "reifying" anything -- I'm dealing with what's already been "reified" and looking for a way forward. The post-1911 Chinese claims you refer don't exist in isolation. They're part of the world system in which claims to territory always have a bit of "might-makes-right" blended in -- thank goodness for Taiwan! We can work to change the system, but we can't just say "it's wrong, therefore it shouldn't exist", which is basically what you do when you completely dismiss China's point of view. (And by the way, the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire isn't an example of anything. Go ask the Kurds about that.)<br /><br />I still haven't come to accept the excessively negative portrait of Ma that you espouse. But I don't know enough to say that you're wrong. It just seems unlikely: do you think he'd rather see China hold sway over the Taiwan straits, instead of the US? If he's really a Chinese nationalist, I guess he would.<br /><br />Of course it's impossible for me to point to any DPP instances of "confrontation", because anything I'd label so you would call "resistance". A lot of it depends on context. If a US Dept of Defense report referred to "a rising China with a clear motivation to become a regional hegemon" (Tsai's words here), it would be a normal part of the strategic game. If Obama used that in a public speech, it would violate the norms of diplomacy, like old W's "Axis of Evil" speech a few years back. So can the chair of the DPP say it? I don't know. I'm actually glad she did. I'm just trying to say that this way of speaking won't work when the DPP comes to power and they'd best clue themselves, and their supporters, into that fact. Then it will be "confrontational". If you don't want to dance to China's tune, at least consider being coquettish about it. "Well, I don't know. I have a boyfriend. Let's give it some time."<br /><br />You say: "And westerners need to reconstruct their own thinking so that it recognizes the essential illegitimacy of Chinese expansionism." Forgive me, but this sounds so much like "mike the libertarian" from last week. Are you sure he's not your alter-ego?Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-59510618728737295122010-07-29T11:09:21.771+08:002010-07-29T11:09:21.771+08:00@Michael
You suggest that Chinese expansionism to...@Michael<br /><br />You suggest that Chinese expansionism to re-create the perceived or actual frontiers of the Qing state is illegitimate. I would query whether you also believe that, for instance, the current integration of Scotland and Northern Ireland (both remnants of the British Empire) into the United Kingdom or, indeed, the continued US presence in Hawaii and Alaska (acquired during the Manifest Destiny phase of American colonialism) are likewise illegitimate and thereby up for review.<br /><br />Surely what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. <br /><br />On a more legal level, I was also wondering how you, personally, distinguish the "legitimate" establishment of state frontiers with "illegitimate" ones. There is no large state in existence today which has not come about as a result of some kind of expansionism.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07466920779710412541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-84739894721234888652010-07-29T10:01:40.282+08:002010-07-29T10:01:40.282+08:00On another note, it seems to me that the DPP's...<b>On another note, it seems to me that the DPP's China approach is really a weak point for them. I could be wrong, but my sense is that fights in the legislature aside Taiwanese people are pretty non-confrontational.</b><br /><br />The Taiwanese dislike open confrontation, which is one of the KMT advantages since the mainlanders seek it. The Taiwanese also tend to suffer in silence, whereas mainlander culture tends to encourage talking. Taiwanese often feel that mainlanders out-talk them....<br /><br />I don't think the DPP's China policy is a domestic weakness. ECFA shows that, as does the 2008 election. Hsieh did not lose to Ma over Chen's China policy (except in the imaginations of certain US commentators); Ma's promises to guard Taiwan and not to negotiate with China politically are important indicators of that. Basically Ma had to co-opt the DPP line. <br /><br />Taiwanese can be very confrontational -- witness the violence that Shih Ming-te's faux protests met with outside of Taipei. But they are like the militia in the American revolution: you count on them at your peril, and you count them out at your peril. <br /><br />One of the consequences of buying into China's "nationalism" about the Qing era is that you reify Chinese claims to Qing territories and then further re-construct opposition to that expansion as "confrontation." Ma is not "conciliatory", he is a Chinese working for that same nationalism you deplore in your post, (D). The DPP is not "confrontational" but resisting. To bow to Chinese rhetoric is simply to dance to the tune Beijing is creating. Do you think India is "confrontational" over Arunachal Pradesh? What about Tibetans? <br /><br />We live in this rhetorical universe because the post-1911 Chinese leadership decided to inflate China out to the Qing colonial boundaries, much as if Attaturk's successors had worked to expand Turkey back out to the Ottoman holdings and claimed Egypt and Iraq. And westerners need to reconstruct their own thinking so that it recognizes the essential illegitimacy of Chinese expansionism.<br /><br />I'd be curious though, what specific acts of DPP "confrontation" can you point to?Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-615750293325931302010-07-29T09:47:42.796+08:002010-07-29T09:47:42.796+08:00...like on the beef issue, for example. The whole ......like on the beef issue, for example. The whole thing is just silly.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-62633462988067223642010-07-29T09:44:13.303+08:002010-07-29T09:44:13.303+08:00@ Michael: I don't get how the DPP is "s...@ Michael: I don't get how the DPP is "senseless populist anti-American.....?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-71811340882760394442010-07-29T09:39:49.853+08:002010-07-29T09:39:49.853+08:00@Michael: "That fundamentally mistakes the na...@Michael: "That fundamentally mistakes the nature of Chinese "sensitivity."" <br /><br />Again, you're simplifying China. "The feelings of the Chinese people" is part policy choice, and as such yes it should be contested, but the policy isn't built out of thin air. Like other kinds of nationalism, it's an exploitation of pre-existing and often deeply held sentiments. Whether or not the sensitivities have been played up by the CCP, they are real and necessitate a constructive approach, like a person's neuroses will be better handled through slow therapy than through confrontation. I know it's hard to feel any sympathy or empathy when you have 2000 missiles pointed at you, but China's unreasonable approach to Taiwan is wrapped up with China's impotence over the last 200 years and its struggle to integrate itself into the order of nation-states. They're in a tough spot too. (On the plus side, I think China knows a conflict with Taiwan would mean Opium War Part II.)<br /><br />On another note, it seems to me that the DPP's China approach is really a weak point for them. I could be wrong, but my sense is that fights in the legislature aside Taiwanese people are pretty non-confrontational. Even if Tsai is just speaking the truth about the threat China poses to the region, it's still antagonistic to China, and do most people want that confrontational an approach? The DPP strengths seem to be more in a) standing up against KMT corruption and vested interests; and b) identifying itself as the standard-bearer of Taiwan's democracy, and hence of its future.Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-8711204356929932542010-07-29T07:56:15.533+08:002010-07-29T07:56:15.533+08:00(d), the term "appeasement" was last use...(d), the term "appeasement" was last used by me three years ago, and then with approval. <br /><br /><b>But just like in real life, sometimes you have to use kid gloves with people who tend to overreact ridiculously, coming up with tactful ways to change their behavior instead of always confronting them openly and in public.</b><br /><br />That fundamentally mistakes the nature of Chinese "sensitivity." It is a policy choice designed to create exactly the response you advocate, and to deter future firm responses.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-22118821344624982482010-07-29T06:43:05.168+08:002010-07-29T06:43:05.168+08:00Anon, the State Department's One China policy ...Anon, the State Department's One China policy is quite clear and well worth understanding. Saying that two sides have to work something out does not mean that one side owns the other.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-74810514753842102342010-07-29T05:04:12.016+08:002010-07-29T05:04:12.016+08:00In other news, I hereby invite Obama and Ahmadinej...In other news, I hereby invite Obama and Ahmadinejad to my backyard power summit, where we will peacefully resolve all sources of conflict within the Middle East. We should also have time for iced tea and sandwiches shortly following.<br /><br />Tsai and the DPP will never be relevant as long as they deny their total impotence and irrelevance. Same for you, Michael.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-88541711004631448792010-07-29T01:12:41.652+08:002010-07-29T01:12:41.652+08:00Interesting, Michael, how you claim Taiwan has lit...Interesting, Michael, how you claim Taiwan has little to do with the US' "One China" policy when it appears that the US State Department itself has stated that difference between the two "sides" should be solved via the consensus of "people on both sides of the Strait". Now, I wonder, why on Earth the US would suggest that the Chinese have a say in the final status of Taiwan when Taiwan, as you claim, is not part of the US' "One China" policy.<br /><br />The mind boggles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-5456782887500112392010-07-29T01:00:32.925+08:002010-07-29T01:00:32.925+08:00Only the addition of two words to the US foreign p...Only the addition of two words to the US foreign policy; “one Taiwan” to be added..<br /><br />Yes, "One China and one Taiwan" how ethical is to the evolution of American independence! How a new creative ambiguity!<br /><br />To right granted to Taiwan is universally inherent in the founding principle of this nation; we, timid Taiwanese is asking no more and no less than African black people. Indeed, our proposal is helping America to restore her sanity and sainthood. : )Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16981393473889905686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-27051187719492011242010-07-29T00:26:06.356+08:002010-07-29T00:26:06.356+08:00I was not aware that the US ever had a foreign pol...I was not aware that the US ever had a foreign policy of supporting political regimes that were good for people, but instead favoring regimes that maintained destabilization so the military-industrial complex can sell more bombs and planes. To that end, I would think the ideological KMT suits the US's vested interests much better than the more rational DPP.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-91663712311569814302010-07-29T00:06:21.406+08:002010-07-29T00:06:21.406+08:00Sounds good. But something's not right -- wha...Sounds good. But something's not right -- what is it?<br /><br />Since US policy appears to be "keep Taiwan de facto independent, but avoid conflict with PRC", I hardly think they will welcome a ruling party in Taiwan that openly expresses these views. And let's face it, Taiwan is independent because of a historical contingency (the Korean War) and because it fits into the US-backed East Asian system, not because it is a democracy or because it has its own history.<br /><br />The views may be true, but the US and European approach seems to be to handle things "diplomatically", keeping talk of China's threats off the front page except in strategically chosen moments (like the recent South China Seas thing).<br /><br />So it sounds good, but is it good, or is it another something the DPP will have to walk back if they're going to deal constructively with China, given all the latter's famous "sensitivities". Yes, I know, f--- the Chinese sensitivities. But just like in real life, sometimes you have to use kid gloves with people who tend to overreact ridiculously, coming up with tactful ways to change their behavior instead of always confronting them openly and in public. (I can already hear this approach being labeled "appeasement", with a ratty train of Nazi Germany parallels rolling out of the station. Choo choo.)<br /><br />On the other hand, maybe it is good for the chair of the DPP to put some of these sentiments on official record. That way if/when the DPP makes it back to power China will be used to hearing it and perhaps not so "sensitive".<br /><br />The above in my humble opinion. Taiwan is in a tough spot, where ideals and practicalities really have to be negotiated.Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-10747914012223527442010-07-28T21:47:21.478+08:002010-07-28T21:47:21.478+08:00henry, the US "One China" Policy does no...henry, the US "One China" Policy does not include Taiwan. ;)Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-14704381178076843242010-07-28T21:20:09.630+08:002010-07-28T21:20:09.630+08:00The new strategy of DPP needs to communicate with ...The new strategy of DPP needs to communicate with common American people that "One China Policy" is wrong both ethically and national interest is concerned.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16981393473889905686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-37494432509216649832010-07-28T21:17:05.532+08:002010-07-28T21:17:05.532+08:00The Americans keep refusing to see the DPP as an o...The Americans keep refusing to see the DPP as an opportunity. The DPP doesnt help with its senseless populist anti-Americanism.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-15886435171873120142010-07-28T16:39:29.935+08:002010-07-28T16:39:29.935+08:00Tsai's TPP approach is in line with US interes...Tsai's TPP approach is in line with US interests and, if followed, would give the Americans moral high ground on which to approach China regarding relations with Taiwan. A TPP could also pull in many SE Asian nations that want an economic and security counterweight to China. <br /><br />She hit all the right buttons. But I fear that nobody in the US will take the DPP seriously unless it wins the next election. It is folly to allow China to gain advantages through bilateral negotiations with countries in Asia and between China and Taiwan. alone.Tommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552370490869601403noreply@blogger.com