tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post6100998209161726105..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: Senkakus Round Up... AgainMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-17205259309848547632015-01-31T14:42:04.132+08:002015-01-31T14:42:04.132+08:00"Much less important but worthy of note: Kris..."Much less important but worthy of note: Kristof is married to a Chinese-American woman, Sheryl WuDunn. He's a Sinophile in the most literal sense. To Hell with what he thinks."<br /><br />What a sleazy ad hominem. So I suppose any white guy married to a Asian woman must be a shill for her origin country?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-19885838474252659462012-10-06T14:48:20.676+08:002012-10-06T14:48:20.676+08:00Perhaps because throw-away one liners make it easy...<b>Perhaps because throw-away one liners make it easy for the likes of him: they can't lift anything heavier than a playground insult.</b><br /><br />Not to mention, I've specifically stated on several occasions that the best historical analogy to China is 17th century France. But never mind that....<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-58691613632963887262012-10-03T01:58:25.173+08:002012-10-03T01:58:25.173+08:00>>the Treaty of Taipei of 1952,... In it, Ja...>>the Treaty of Taipei of 1952,... In it, Japan conceded defeat to the Republic of China (the then-exiled Chiang Kai-shek government), and ceded to it Taiwan, the Pescadores Islands near Taiwan, ....<<<br /><br /><br /><b>What non-sense!!!</b><br /><br />The Treaty of Taipei certainly didn't include such a thing. <b>It only refers to the San Francisco Treaty and recognizes that in the Treaty of San Francisco Japan renounced all right, title, and claim concerning Taiwan, the Pescadores, the Spratly Islands, and the Paracel Islands.</b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-62958164166238089442012-10-02T11:41:04.746+08:002012-10-02T11:41:04.746+08:00I think another "Inconvenient Truth" tha...I think another "Inconvenient Truth" that you should consider adding to this excellent article is the Treaty of Taipei of 1952, the peace treaty ending the Second Sino-Japanese War. In it, Japan conceded defeat to the Republic of China (the then-exiled Chiang Kai-shek government), and ceded to it Taiwan, the Pescadores Islands near Taiwan, plus Japan's claims to various islands in the South China Sea. The Senkakus? They never came up. If the ROC truly believed in the "Daioyu" nonsense they could have demanded them then and there. But they did not do so...<br /><br />Much less important but worthy of note: Kristof is married to a Chinese-American woman, Sheryl WuDunn. He's a Sinophile in the most literal sense. To Hell with what he thinks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-15538153808372666752012-10-01T11:26:52.317+08:002012-10-01T11:26:52.317+08:00"The commenter's own sense of moral super...<i>"The commenter's own sense of moral superiority is now wrapped up in social class display and he is no longer reachable with merely real considerations."</i><br /><br />Perhaps because throw-away one liners make it easy for the likes of him: they can't lift anything heavier than a playground insult.Mike Faganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08745281285031316740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-91044148364366551362012-10-01T10:39:15.518+08:002012-10-01T10:39:15.518+08:00Yes, I know, such parallels could be added ad infi...Yes, I know, such parallels could be added ad infinitum, but we both know it is impossible to convince people riding the Godwin high horse with mere evidence and argument. The commenter's own sense of moral superiority is now wrapped up in social class display and he is no longer reachable with merely real considerations. Sad.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-90317257700558881122012-10-01T10:28:24.374+08:002012-10-01T10:28:24.374+08:00"...attempt to argue that their particular ad...<i>"...attempt to argue that their particular ad Hitlerum analogies are somehow appropriate."</i><br /><br />The comparison to the Nazis is appropriate on several counts: racial ideology, fascist control of industry and imperial ambition.Mike Faganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08745281285031316740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-7656743783108570922012-10-01T08:09:35.623+08:002012-10-01T08:09:35.623+08:00endless knee-jerk analogies with Hitler and the Na...<b>endless knee-jerk analogies with Hitler and the Nazis instead of with any other totalitarian and expansionist regimes and ideologies</b><br /><br />...except of course, it isn't endless or constant. It is occasional and often snarky. And other expansionist ideologies are at the end of the post. D'oh.<br /><br />Why you are so desperate to recover this non-point about a single snarky comment at the end of a post involving hundreds of words and many images is a mystery. You've dug this silly hole deep enough and have made an absolute ass of yourself. Why don't you avoid reading this blog in the future? Then you can maintain that smug, superior feeling, and I can go on blogging, and we'll both be happier.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-37895590684612863992012-10-01T07:40:46.907+08:002012-10-01T07:40:46.907+08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-83763869438794881042012-10-01T05:50:52.597+08:002012-10-01T05:50:52.597+08:00Anonymous of September 30, 2012 9:46 AM wrote:
&q...Anonymous of September 30, 2012 9:46 AM wrote:<br /><br />"Look, Michael, no other response than retraction is appropriate here."<br /><br /><br />Hm...I didn't realize that Michael was laying a claim on the Senkaku islands.<br /><br />Gosh, analogies are used all the time to make a point in order to save everybody's time.<br /><br />The Chinese need to relax their collective rectal sphincter a bit and learn to not automatically jump to demand for a "retraction" whenever someone says something they don't like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36564726804263247672012-10-01T02:53:15.031+08:002012-10-01T02:53:15.031+08:00My word. One does not need to pull the Hitler Card...My word. One does not need to pull the Hitler Card to see what "China's territorial and ideological goals" are. Slapping down a sloppy ad Hitlerium analogy of these goals is not a denial of same. Read carefully. <br /><br />Perhaps there ought to be a corollary to Godwin's Law, if there is not one already: When people are called out for stooping to reductio ad Hitlerum tactics, they become defensive and flustered and attempt to argue that their particular ad Hitlerum analogies are somehow appropriate. <br /><br />And descriptive or proscriptive, Godwin's law is on-center in what it deplores: endless knee-jerk analogies with Hitler and the Nazis instead of with any other totalitarian and expansionist regimes and ideologies. Constant ad Hitlerium analogizing reflects a lack of historical knowledge, imagination, or contemplation -- and perhaps all three. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-70129000118200460202012-09-30T21:56:04.972+08:002012-09-30T21:56:04.972+08:00If I may be permitted to comment on this occassion...If I may be permitted to comment on this occassion...<br /><br /><i>"Look, Michael, no other response than retraction is appropriate here."</i><br /><br />Quite the opposite. <br /><br />The analogy could be taken further: not only is race-based nationalism a pivot point of the CCP's domestic propaganda, but their imperialist ambitions are somewhat similar to those of the Nazis in strategic aspect.<br /><br />The Nazis annexed both Hungary and Romania without using force but merely by offering economic inducements and spurious security guarantees against the Soviets. Although the security guarantees are obviously missing, the CCP's attempt under Hu to induce Taiwan's annexation via ECFA and various other ongoing "treaties" is arguably somewhat similar. Although the threat of force against Taiwan remains via the 2nd Artillery and the PLAAF, the CCP are as yet trying to play for Taiwan's annexation on the cheap. <br /><br />The annexation of Austria and (eventually) the whole of Czechoslovakia was accomplished under the mere <i>threat</i> of force, partly due to the military inferiority of both Austria and Czechoslovakia and partly due to British and French cowardice in refusing to defend the Austrians and the Czechs. The CCP/PLAN's strategy for annexing the territorial waters of Vietnam and the Phillipines also turns on the threat of overwhelming military force to the extent that (a) the naval forces of both Vietnam and the Phillipines remain inferior, and (b) U.S. support can be doubted. The fact that U.S. support appears to remain is the only thing keeping a lid on it. This is almost certainly true of Taiwan's situation also.<br /><br />What about Japan and the Senkakus? I would think the obvious comparison is with Poland - there can be little doubt that of all the Asian countries threatened by the CCP, Japan is the one most likely, if not certain, to fight back and resist Chinese expansion. It is probably also the one country in the region whose territorial borders are an actual trip-wire for the triggering of U.S. deterrance.<br /><br />In another respect, there is a further similarity in that where the Nazis at first made use of Keyensian stimulus spending followed by direct enslavement of much of German industry for military purposes (and not only manufacturing, but agriculture, banking and other "sectors" as well), so too has the CCP already made vast use of stimulus spending (forests of expensive apartment buildings that nobody can afford to live in etc...) and is already attempting to militarize its foreign policy to expand the PLAN's control outward to beyond the 1st island chain.<br /><br />Having said all that, the analogy to the Nazis doesn't quite fit in other aspects. With the demise of both Mao and Deng, it is arguable that the CCP no longer have a cult leader (although the Bo Xilai case is a reminder that Mao's rotten Lefty carcass may yet be resurrected). The division of the CCP into factions also prevents the further concentration of political power into the hands of any such cult leader - at least until such time as one emerges and is able to instigate his own "night of the long knives".<br /><br />So I think the analogy to the Nazis is interesting and in any case, "Godwin's law" was descriptive rather than proscriptive - which is something either conveniently forgotten or a point of ignorance to start with.Mike Faganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08745281285031316740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-8808782145824878382012-09-30T17:37:53.510+08:002012-09-30T17:37:53.510+08:00'm sorry, and sorry for you, that you have suc...<b>'m sorry, and sorry for you, that you have such a juvenile (I will reiterate) conception of "truth." Look, Michael, no other response than retraction is appropriate here. Such guilt-by-association casuistry is beneath you. </b><br /><br />Look, if you can't see what China is and what its territorial and ideological goals are, and not only their tight parallels with Nazi Germany (and other right-wing nationalistic expansionist states), in addition to their shared ideological roots (see Dikotter on the roots of modern Han ethnic ideology in China and its relationship to the 19th century European racists) then I don't mind. But keep your ignorance to yourself, please.<br /><br />And really, take a moment and re-read the last paragraph. I will not be lectured at by people who do not know their shit and didn't even bother to read what I wrote.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-28990774142695078032012-09-30T09:51:40.426+08:002012-09-30T09:51:40.426+08:00See also this thoughtful item on enforcing "G...See also this thoughtful item on enforcing "Godwin's Law": <br /><br />http://www.volokh.com/posts/1138736303.shtmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-28699268558013704022012-09-30T09:46:34.364+08:002012-09-30T09:46:34.364+08:00I'm sorry, and sorry for you, that you have su...I'm sorry, and sorry for you, that you have such a juvenile (I will reiterate) conception of "truth." Look, Michael, no other response than retraction is appropriate here. Such guilt-by-association casuistry is beneath you. <br /><br />http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnazium.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-89135747063244279272012-09-29T16:30:32.326+08:002012-09-29T16:30:32.326+08:00Don't worry Michael. The ChiCom regime will ha...Don't worry Michael. The ChiCom regime will have collapsed long before any such fantastical notions can exercised to action.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-87609575898114443932012-09-29T13:58:41.401+08:002012-09-29T13:58:41.401+08:00The cutesy Berlin/Beijing thing is actually juveni...<b>The cutesy Berlin/Beijing thing is actually juvenile and gratuitous reductio ad Hitlerum invective. Please -- can we stop, stop, STOP with the Hitler Card already?</b><br /><br />I'm sorry the truth seems juvenile to you.<br /><br />Michael Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-72009740470008779622012-09-29T09:47:33.439+08:002012-09-29T09:47:33.439+08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-31764849546750597552012-09-29T09:10:00.197+08:002012-09-29T09:10:00.197+08:00I think the Chinese and Taiwanese never complained...I think the Chinese and Taiwanese never complained in the 50s and 60s because the islands as part of the Ryukyus were administered by the United States until 1972. There was probably no point in making noise about American occupation of the area. Once they were handed back to Japan in '72, they could then stake their claim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-28547081249254276632012-09-29T02:08:19.296+08:002012-09-29T02:08:19.296+08:00The "FE Sweet Potato blog" text on "...The "FE Sweet Potato blog" text on "China's first carrier is commissioned" states that<br /><br />"...Until today, China was the only permanent member of the UN National Security Council that did not have operational aircraft carrier capability."<br /><br />-----<br />Well, China still does NOT have an operational aircraft carrier. <a rel="nofollow">BBC reports on Sept 25, 2012 (<b>link</b>)</a> :<br /><br />"<i>But China does not yet have a fleet of aircraft or pilots ready for carrier operations. So the Liaoning will be used to test and train them, a task that will probably take several years, our correspondent adds.</i>"<br /><br />So, the "carrier" will not carry anything for years until further notice. There is no aircraft to be carried and there is no pilots to fly "them".<br /><br />It is not operational.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-50036446925880777422012-09-29T01:54:39.254+08:002012-09-29T01:54:39.254+08:00"White Paper from (Berlin) Beijing on why (th..."White Paper from (Berlin) Beijing on why (the Sudetenland is German) the Senkakus are Chinese."<br /><br /><br />Excellent one-line-says-it-all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com