tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post4179265270508892656..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: How many were at the rally?Michael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-43156834514582198712008-09-04T14:09:00.000+08:002008-09-04T14:09:00.000+08:00Andrew, I just meant the language when I said "Tai...Andrew, I just meant the language when I said "Taiwanese/Hokkienese." I assumed the people Not-Green-Not-Blue was talking to were speaking in Hokkienese (but it sounds like they might've actually been from Taiwan). I think the CCP, feeling less threatened by its own subjects than the KMT, has done a better job at letting local cultures be themselves.Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13079284428870214896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-75943968074589260172008-09-04T08:26:00.000+08:002008-09-04T08:26:00.000+08:00"I wonder how Chinese tourists see Taiwan."I think..."I wonder how Chinese tourists see Taiwan."<BR/><BR/>I think this is a real interesting question as the KMT's tourism program and their goal of unification with China are running on two different and opposing trajectories. <BR/><BR/>The unification program seeks to make China more like "us" and to "modernize" them and remove the differences between the populations of Taiwan and China... or deny the differences that exist for political unity. <BR/><BR/>Tourism opposes this idea by marketing Taiwan's differences and casting Taiwan and the cultures of Taiwan as "exotic" to the Chinese... to commoditize the fetish of the "other" or "different".NONEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00312011183953017842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-51897842232350295632008-09-04T08:25:00.000+08:002008-09-04T08:25:00.000+08:00"I wonder how Chinese tourists see Taiwan."I think..."I wonder how Chinese tourists see Taiwan."<BR/><BR/>I think this is a real interesting question as the KMT's tourism program and their goal of unification with China are running on two different and opposing trajectories. <BR/><BR/>The unification program seeks to make China more like "us" and to "modernize" them and remove the differences between the populations of Taiwan and China... or deny the differences that exist for political unity. <BR/><BR/>Tourism opposes this idea by marketing Taiwan's differences and casting Taiwan and the cultures of Taiwan as "exotic" to the Chinese... to commoditize the fetish of the "other" or "different".NONEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00312011183953017842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-46755093370867038022008-09-04T08:16:00.000+08:002008-09-04T08:16:00.000+08:00"It's kind of sad that Taiwanese/Hokkienese will t..."It's kind of sad that Taiwanese/Hokkienese will thrive in China as it fades away in Taiwan"<BR/><BR/>Carlos,<BR/><BR/>Maybe the fultility in trying to define and fix the meaning of what constitutes "Taiwaneseness/Hokkieneseness is the problem as it essentializes these identities and terms in constructions and denies them the ability to change or recognize the coevalness of these identities. By doing so you will only alienate people. Again, it creates a battle for authenticity, which is always a losing battle.NONEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00312011183953017842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-10948978295450425582008-09-04T07:04:00.000+08:002008-09-04T07:04:00.000+08:00"Speaking for myself, I've been there many times o..."Speaking for myself, I've been there many times over the years most recently in Mar08. You know what I have learned the most? It's that<STRONG><EM> I am incredibility thankful that Taiwan is not run by the same government as China. The CCP is the real enemy of the people who live in Taiwan</EM></STRONG>."<BR/><BR/>It makes sense to me if you said that CCP is enemy of Taiwanese because of the political tension and missiles pointing at Taiwan's direction. Perhpas I misunderstood you, <STRONG>but</STRONG> it sounds like you feel that CCP is the enemy of Taiwanese from some specific "personal" experience you had while visiting China, so I am <STRONG>extremely</STRONG> interested in learning more from your personal experience and what led to such a dramatic claim? Did you personally encounter any specific incidence(s) of oppression, imprisonment, or roughing up by the PRC government, the PRC army or police during your frequent visits? Did you feel targeted by PRC government or police while there because of your accent?<BR/><BR/>Everyone in my 32-people tour group was first time visitors to China from Taiwan, so our heads were "filled" with fear that if we said the wrong thing about Taiwan/China political situation, and then we would be arrested by the "secret" PRC police.<BR/><BR/>However my visit to China turned out to be quite different from my imagination and expectations in so many ways. The following is speaking purely from my personal experience and personal observations:<BR/><BR/>1. We toured Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Xi'an, Guangzhou, Guilin and Hong Kong in 15 days. Sure, in Beijing there were more police and we did see army guards near the Tiananmen Square by the "People's Congress/Hall", but all the other big cities felt just like the cities n Taiwan, S. Korean and Japan or America. Even the country side near Guilin with the water buffalos/veggie fields reminded me more of the countryside of Taiwan from say 30 years ago. We didn’t see any too many PRC soldiers outside of Beijing.<BR/>2. The infrastructure was impressive and intimating to our group (just from learning how fast Puo Dong 浦東 was developed.) It was almost sad to think that how fast China has caught up with Taiwan economically and with their infrastructure. When Taiwanese were so caught up with the political infighting since 1999, China was developing in leaps and bounds. Any “superiority” that my group mates felt as being the “richer” Taiwanese before the tour began was gone by the time our flight took off from Shanghai. By the time we finished the last leg of our tour in Hong KOng, we (Pan Green, Pan Blue) were actually discussing why the Hong Kong model might not be bad for Taiwan. <BR/>3. We ate lots of Taiwanese food in Taiwanese restaurants, sang lots of songs in KTVs, and got awesome massages in places mostly operated by Taiwanese!! Perhaps all the Taiwanese tours take the same routes, so we constantly ran into other Taiwanese: heard and talked Taiwanese all day long when we passed the other groups. That's why we joked that Taiwanese did already liberated China!<BR/>4. When we talked to mainland "Chinese," we all identified ourselves by which places we were from: I am from Hunan, or I am from Shanghai, I am from Taiwan & etc. It's not like anyone had to specifically emphasize that we are "Chinese" vs. "Taiwanese", because that was not how people identified themselves inside China.<BR/>5. We got so comfortable with our tour guides that we were even exchanging political jokes and complaints! Our guides asked lots of questions about the elections and rallies in Taiwan. We even compared notes as to what is more costly to our wallets on either side: corruption by the Communist officials in PRC, or the corruptions by KMT/DPP PLUS all the money that goes into these election campaigns in Taiwan. No one got arrested by secret police, because of our discussions and complaints.<BR/>6. Oh yea, there were rude people everywhere and traffic rules were routinely ignored too! It was just like in Taipei!! hahaha...<BR/>7. We dad some difficulty reading the simplified writing at the beginning, but quickly got over it. Most mianland Chinese we came into contact with spoke Mandarin with their hometown accents, so we couldn't quite pin down what being "Chineseness" is inside China. <BR/>8. The whole time we were there, we didn't feel any ordinary Chinese citizens or ourselves were under surveillance.<BR/><BR/>That is why I didn't leave China feeling more pro or anti China. It still feels a little surreal to this day, especially comparing news coverage about China to our own experience. Anyway, perhpas our experience was the exception, not the norm, so please elaborate and share your experience if you have time. I am planning to visit China again next year and would certainly appreciate your perspective and watch out for "dnager" and "enemies" tha tyou have mentioned more carefully next time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36000634799276719812008-09-04T03:43:00.000+08:002008-09-04T03:43:00.000+08:00Not-Green-Not-Blue,It's kind of sad that Taiwanese...Not-Green-Not-Blue,<BR/><BR/>It's kind of sad that Taiwanese/Hokkienese will thrive in China as it fades away in Taiwan. I don't think much of Taiwan's educational system... it's probably the biggest reason why my mom moved to the US and why I didn't spend much of my childhood in TW. <BR/><BR/>I wonder how Chinese tourists see Taiwan.Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13079284428870214896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-54104941007932559412008-09-03T23:07:00.000+08:002008-09-03T23:07:00.000+08:00It turns out that Taipei Police Department uses di...It turns out that Taipei Police Department uses different formulas to calculate the people count for "Anti-Bian" protest and "Anti-Ma protest:<BR/><BR/><B>Anti-Bian(2005): 4 persons/square meter<BR/>Anti-Ma(2008): 2 persons/square meter</B><BR/><BR/>resulting in either overestimate of anti-bian count, or underestimate anti-ma count, or both.<BR/><BR/><I>遊行人數計算兩標準 引發北市議員質疑 <BR/><A HREF="http://iservice.libertytimes.com.tw/liveNews/news.php?no=123818&type=%E6%94%BF%E6%B2%BB" REL="nofollow">http://iservice.libertytimes.com.tw/liveNews/news.php?no=123818&type=%E6%94%BF%E6%B2%BB</A></I><BR/><BR/>Way to go, horse-ass-kissing TPD !<BR/><BR/>Can't imagine how stupid they are to think they can get away with this in this information age.Runsunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00943096071902196841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-58626483848863216432008-09-03T21:54:00.000+08:002008-09-03T21:54:00.000+08:00I agree with David about the usefulness of aerial ...I agree with David about the usefulness of aerial photos (and perhaps computer software to count 'em up), but I can see an additional source of undercounting error. A lot of folks join a march, stay for a bit, leave, and others come to take their place.<BR/><BR/>Take pictures at say, 2 pm and 4 pm, and you may count a certain number of heads. But some of those heads may actually represent more than one person - people who leave early as well as latecomers.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I didn't go. I thought all the talk before the march that more people than the organizers originally expected would show up was false bravado. Frankly, I expected the only people who would go would be a tiny contingent of dispirited die-hards. And I thought that would be a bit depressing.<BR/><BR/>Hey, hey -- glad I was wrong.<BR/><BR/>Thing is though, I'll bet a lot of folks in the KMT thought as I did. Because the DPP's fortunes really are at their nadir right now. Wiped out in the legislative elections. Defeated in the legislative elections. Morale-breaking revelations about Chen Shui-bian.<BR/><BR/>And after all that, they still manage to get 100,000 people out to protest Ma Ying-jeou, who's only been on the job 100 days?<BR/><BR/>Impressive. Most impressive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-34835310273063550342008-09-03T14:04:00.000+08:002008-09-03T14:04:00.000+08:00..All that fear of Chen unilaterally declaring ind...<I>..All that fear of Chen unilaterally declaring independence never materialized.</I><BR/><BR/>Anyone that knows even a little about Taiwan understands that it is the LY that controls what gets put on the agenda for laws to be passed including changing the constitution and any independence issues. <BR/><BR/>The LY has been blue controlled since day 1. The only time when the DPP had even a chance to take control was in Dec04 elections, but they blew it. Chen all along stated he would never declare independence during his term. <BR/><BR/><I>Why would Ma want to downgrade himself from a President of a country to a provincial governor in four years by willingly handing Taiwan over to China.</I><BR/><BR/>Ok, just for starters: <BR/><BR/>(1) Deep blue business interests in China.<BR/><BR/>(2) KMT fear of losing power to a democratically elected DPP again. (If you haven't been paying attention, the KMT has been pushing for a Singapore style autocracy for the last few years.) <BR/><BR/>(3) Han uber alles greater China superiority complex within the deep blues.<BR/><BR/>(4) Lien Chan's desire to leave a legacy that he was the one to unite Taiwan with the PRC. <BR/><BR/>(5) Bankrupt gov't and financial institutions in TWN that need China's investment money.<BR/><BR/>(6) Fear that the US military will no longer protect Taiwan so they may as well suck up now.<BR/><BR/>(7) Western biz consultants such as GS, JPM, Kissinger, Wolfowitz, that are pushing the KMT to unite with the PRC so China doesn't stop buying US Treasuries and GSE agency paper. <BR/><BR/>(8) Ma is just a puppet that does what he is told. <BR/><BR/><I>China has also a long list of other problems on its hand right now...I really don't see China trying to invade Taiwan by 2012 to take it back to force.</I><BR/><BR/>Yep, agreed, they have their hands full. One thing you missed though is that perhaps the cooling economy becomes overwhelming for the CCP to keep things under their control. They may whip up the "unite the motherland" nationalism issue once again to sidetrack people from economic issues.<BR/><BR/>Also, you mentioned twice in your feedback "use of force" but I think you are fooling yourself. China doesn't need to use force to take Taiwan (imo). This has been discussed on this blog many times, so I won't get into it here except to say with a pro-china KMT in charge, it only makes it easier for the CCP to walk right in especially with the electronic keys to the fort in hand. Btw, the Taiwan military is once again singing praise to China in their marching tunes. <BR/><BR/><I>Both sides have basically agreed to disagree and binned the issues of independence/reunification to deal with more urgent issues like the economy.</I><BR/><BR/>No, they haven't. This is just B.S. made up by the KMT. Haven't you been paying attention to the way the PRC keeps marginalizing Taiwan on every front? Step by step they will strangle Taiwan's sovereignty. <BR/><BR/><I>BTW, have you been to China yet? </I><BR/><BR/>Speaking for myself, I've been there many times over the years most recently in Mar08. You know what I have learned the most? It's that I am incredibility thankful that Taiwan is not run by the same government as China. The CCP is the real enemy of the people who live in Taiwan. <BR/><BR/>p.s. had to type this fast, I hope you can absorb it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-29024373583297623442008-09-03T13:47:00.000+08:002008-09-03T13:47:00.000+08:00"Not-Green-Not-Blue, I'm not sure you understand o..."Not-Green-Not-Blue, I'm not sure you understand our feelings towards China."<BR/><BR/>Hi Carlos- did you mean "our" feelings towards China? I was born and raised in Taiwan during the martial law era. (Grew up as poor as Chen in the country side. Like Chen, I only escaped poverty and destiny of a life-time hard labor because of my academic 'ability'.) So..yes, I know all about the anti-communist sentiment instilled in us. I can still recite some passages in the textbooks about how poor our 大陸同胞 were and that these poor Chinese compatriots were waiting for the KMT's liberation: 「新三年、舊三年、縫縫補補又三年」「解救大陸同胞於水深火熱之中」.hahaha... <BR/> <BR/>That is why I said the visit was interesting and enlightening to me personally. It didn't make me more pro or anti communist China, just interesting and weird to finally visit a place that one has studied so much and knew about for decades. By the way, it was funny to hear Taiwanese spoken in every site we visited and every restaurant we ate in! We joked that Taiwanese already "liberted" China(反攻大陸了), or at least all of their major tourist attractions! :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-29086621432003510822008-09-03T13:06:00.000+08:002008-09-03T13:06:00.000+08:00Carlos,What is important I think, is not where the...Carlos,<BR/><BR/>What is important I think, is not where the culture came from, but the alterity, or what was and is being done with it by the locals that gives it power.NONEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00312011183953017842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-69353240898341608392008-09-03T09:28:00.000+08:002008-09-03T09:28:00.000+08:00Not-Green-Not-Blue, I'm not sure you understand ou...Not-Green-Not-Blue, I'm not sure you understand our feelings towards China. Most of the hatred towards the PRC was implanted by the KMT's educational system (maybe it's changed recently, now that they feel the greens are a greater threat to them), and of course all the "you will be assimilated... or bombed to oblivion" threats by the CCP aren't great advertisement either. But it's not really about the PRC; it's the ROC that caused the anti-China bitterness. And by telling the Taiwanese that the PRC was even worse, they made China look very scary! <BR/><BR/>Despite that, a lot of Taiwanese mostly see China as an interesting place that a lot of our culture came from in the distant past, and as a big market to play in. It's great that you can now go to China for tourism or business, but that's all it is. It's not really a homecoming unless you have family that lived in China a couple of generations ago. From my half-Hispanic point of view, I can say it's very similar to how a lot of Latin Americans view Spain.Carloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13079284428870214896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-70234181728374501842008-09-03T07:13:00.000+08:002008-09-03T07:13:00.000+08:00It would have been more beneficial to DPP if the m...<EM>It would have been more beneficial to DPP if the march takes place in 2011 and..China does take over Taiwan.</EM><BR/><EM><BR/><STRONG>"Think about what you just wrote. Do you actually believe China will allow anyone to protest once it takes over?"</STRONG> </EM><BR/><STRONG><EM><BR/></EM></STRONG>Hahaha.. my bad, I didn't emphasize the "sarcasm" in my tone. That is the cynical me talking. I remember the fear mongering among the Deep Blue voters in 2000 and 2004. All that fear of Chen unilaterally declaring independence never materialized. Why would Ma want to downgrade himself from a President of a country to a provincial governor in four years by willingly handing Taiwan over to China. China has also a long list of other problems on its hand right now ranging from Tibet, rebuilding the earthquake zone, to dealing with a cooling economy that I really don't see China trying to invade Taiwan by 2012 to take it back to force. Both sides have basically agreed to disagree and binned the issues of independence/reunification to deal with more urgent issues like the economy.<BR/><BR/><STRONG>You can chew my head off if by 2011 Ma hands Taiwan to China or if China take over Taiwan by force...seriously..hahaha...<BR/></STRONG><BR/>BTW, have you been to China yet? It was quite an interesting and enlightening trip for me in 2007. Even the DPP politicians are flying to China in drove now, so you should pay a visit to China. As a matter of fact, I would suggest any TI supporter or strong anti-China type to go visit China. I am not saying that you will give up the TI dream or your anti-China stance because of the trip. From a "war" strategy point of view, Chinese has a great saying: 知敵知彼 百戰百勝. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-58371862720580263882008-09-02T17:35:00.000+08:002008-09-02T17:35:00.000+08:00"And why do you people keep spreading that lie abo...<B>"And why do you people keep spreading that lie about the bad economy?"<BR/><BR/>What? Were you in the Aug 30 rally? This was one of the 3 "reasons" why DPP held this rally. If you think your fellow marchers are spreading "lies", you should take down the various pictures on your August 30 rally entry that said "顧腹肚" and especially the one picture showing the piece of red paper that complained how bad the economy is. It's too bad that you were matching with "liers."</B><BR/><BR/>Miscommunication! I thought you were taking another potshot at Chen Shui-bian.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-84556071303516897712008-09-02T16:31:00.000+08:002008-09-02T16:31:00.000+08:00"And why do you people keep spreading that lie abo..."And why do you people keep spreading that lie about the bad economy?"<BR/><BR/>What? Were you in the Aug 30 rally? This was one of the 3 "reasons" why DPP held this rally. If you think your fellow marchers are spreading "lies", you should take down the various pictures on your August 30 rally entry that said "顧腹肚" and especially the one picture showing the piece of red paper that complained how bad the economy is. It's too bad that you were matching with "liers."<BR/><BR/>"Yes -- just as there are too many KMT supporters today who still remain with the KMT no matter how much money it stole, how many people it killed, and how badly it will loot and betray the island."<BR/><BR/>That is why it doesn't help DPP to congratulate itself by the turn out of this rally. I remember that KMT held a similar rally towards the end of 2000 with great turn out too. The feel good rally didn't help KMT win the next few elections. 忠言逆耳, but it's a reality that DPP needs to face. However, DPP's power center (中常委) is still controlled by Chen's die hard supporters who are just waiting for opportunity to resurrect Chen, so this break is not as clean as you would like to think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-22222253868309260282008-09-02T13:29:00.000+08:002008-09-02T13:29:00.000+08:001. "I think it says a lot that some of the most ar...1. "I think it says a lot that some of the most ardent supporters of Taiwan Independence are foreigners who make sweeping statements like "Taiwan stood up" with the sense that they actually understand Taiwan, and in the next breath says "加油臺灣!"."<BR/><BR/>That's strange - I thought some of Taiwan's olympic athlete's also said, "臺灣加油!". I suppose any 'foreigners' who feel Taiwan is province of China are OK, though, and need not 'get out'.<BR/><BR/>2. "As far as I'm concerned, any waishengren that doesn't identify Taiwanese is a foreigner and has no right to tell any white foreigners (some are clueless, some know a lot, some are permanently here and love this country) what to think about Taiwan."<BR/><BR/>Thank you - well stated. But what you might be surprised to know is that some of the 'waishengren' you are referring to are white themselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-13213818604547169152008-09-02T13:16:00.000+08:002008-09-02T13:16:00.000+08:00Princeroy said:I probably would agree with Ma that...Princeroy said:<BR/>I probably would agree with Ma that what Taiwan is going through right now is more indicative of the repercussions in the global economy primarily due to US financial mismanagement and the mortgage crisis. <BR/><BR/>So, you also agree that the economy under the Chen adminstration was influenced by the global economy? Ma and the KMT conveniently overlooked that yet now claim they are victims of the global economy......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-12749139738952643102008-09-02T13:01:00.000+08:002008-09-02T13:01:00.000+08:00It would have been more beneficial to DPP if the m...<I>It would have been more beneficial to DPP if the march takes place in 2011 and..China does take over Taiwan.</I><BR/><BR/>Think about what you just wrote. Do you actually believe China will allow anyone to protest once it takes over? <BR/><BR/>And btw, many people stick to the DPP because their is really no other choice. The DPP stands for keeping the Politburo out of Taiwan. The KMT stands for capitulation. There is no SQ or consensus. It is only a KMT wetdream. <BR/><BR/>Wake up and smell the tofu.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-58043158927731454242008-09-02T11:43:00.000+08:002008-09-02T11:43:00.000+08:00There are just many die-hard DPP supporters who wi...<B>There are just many die-hard DPP supporters who will stay with DPP through scandals, corrutpions and even bad economy. </B><BR/><BR/>Yes -- just as there are too many KMT supporters today who still remain with the KMT no matter how much money it stole, how many people it killed, and how badly it will loot and betray the island. <BR/><BR/>The DPP is currently the standard bearer of a positive dream. That is why the people stay with it.<BR/><BR/>And why do you people keep spreading that lie about the bad economy?<BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36098404633507674702008-09-02T11:25:00.000+08:002008-09-02T11:25:00.000+08:00FYI: another 2 articles dedicates to estimate the ...FYI: <BR/><BR/>another 2 articles dedicates to estimate the scale of marcher amount. <BR/><BR/>http://www.wretch.cc/blog/billypan101/14363385<BR/><BR/>http://blog.hi3b.com/archives/511James W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08278363021835161204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-35741752684526270712008-09-02T09:22:00.000+08:002008-09-02T09:22:00.000+08:00As far as I'm concerned, any waishengren that does...As far as I'm concerned, any waishengren that doesn't identify Taiwanese is a foreigner and has no right to tell any white foreigners (some are clueless, some know a lot, some are permanently here and love this country) what to think about Taiwan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-78359598731562479932008-09-02T08:19:00.000+08:002008-09-02T08:19:00.000+08:00It doesn't matter to DPP, KMT, or Taiwan whether 4...It doesn't matter to DPP, KMT, or Taiwan whether 40,000, or 50,000 or 200,000 or 300,000 attended this particular rally. Five million Taiwanese did vote for a DPP candidate in March, so it wouldn't have been too hard to get these many supporters to attend a DPP rally even post Chen scandal. There are just many die-hard DPP supporters who will stay with DPP through scandals, corrutpions and even bad economy. <BR/><BR/>Simply put, this rally took place too soon after DPP/Chen left office, and therefore lacked certain legitimacy to the other Taiwanese when the marchers only blamed Ma without blaming the previous administration for the current economic problems. It would have been more beneficial to DPP if the march takes place in 2011 and the economy is still bad or China does take over Taiwan. <BR/><BR/>This particular rally/march only served to solidify the same old DPP Deep Green base and might fool the DPP leadership into complacency again. There were many young faces in your pictures, but I saw far more of the same, traditional, Southern, older-generation DPP supporters in your pictures. <BR/>What you pointed out as DPP's problems in your March 23 "Election Rejection" entry and other <A HREF="https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=10698887&postID=1334899577135269220" REL="nofollow">bloggers </A>who responded are still present and still need to be fixed. For example, in your video I still heard people chanted only in "Taiwanese" which is the language that you and your kids don't quite understand.<BR/>The bigger question is where will DPP be in 4 years and if 17% of voters that DPP lost to Ma in 2008 will come back to vote for DPP again in 4 years? <BR/><BR/>I sincerely hope DPP leadership doesn't congratulate itself too soon because of the inflated estimate of 300,000 marchers. This sort self-congraulatory often turned into self-inflicted wounds by DPP leadership. The burying-your-head-in-the-sand menatality had occurred too many times and only weakened DPP at the end.<BR/><BR/>Just my two cents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-6019918560933032522008-09-02T05:56:00.000+08:002008-09-02T05:56:00.000+08:00princeroy:No, I think complete lack of a tourist s...princeroy:<BR/><BR/>No, I think complete lack of a tourist surge is a huge problem. First, there has been a lot of investment in preparation of Chinese tourism, greatly encouraged by the KMT, and if you believed Ma's hot air, pretty reasonable given how many points he was up and for so long.<BR/><BR/>Second, the whole problem of trying to base economic growth around tourism is exactly that the flow is turned on and off by China! That's called putting all your eggs in one basket for the promise of a return that isn't so great anyways.<BR/><BR/>Third, sub-prime is a problem that started last summer. The problems in the credit crisis in the US accelerated so that today even prime, ie people with good credit, ie all the Freddie and Fannie in the news, are now in trouble. When were the elections in Taiwan again? March of THIS YEAR?<BR/><BR/>Fourth, having an economics background, their policy of increasing government spending in a high inflation environment makes no sense whatsoever. It appears it was designed merely to make good on campaign promises without any regard to actual economic environment. This is just increasing economic pain and has little to do with the external environment.<BR/><BR/>The current KMT government is just incompetent. It's getting ridiculous. The try to lie about everything (saying there was 8 trillion about to be invested in the stock market to prevent any more drops, saying that there are "8 big measures", and then an official coming out saying, yeah, we just want people to calm down, whether we actually implement that still needs to be researched. They are treating people like they are idiots.<BR/><BR/>I can definitely tell you that people of all spectrums are mad as hell. But you're right that as long as Chen Shuibian is still in the news, people would still have voted for Ma. When it shifts to Ma vs Tsai Ing-wen, the DPP is going to start getting some surprising wins. Time will tell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-18378842983882973872008-09-01T21:26:00.000+08:002008-09-01T21:26:00.000+08:00thanks michael! I was so upset not being able to t...thanks michael! I was so upset not being able to take part in the rally, and the news over here censored almost everything. No pictures nothing, thanks to you, I still get to experience it overseas. <BR/><BR/>also from what i heard from my mother, ( We live at GongYuan Road ), there were many more at other districts and sections around the area who were unable to join in with the crowd or stood by another side due to the weather. <BR/><BR/>Roughly, the figures should be about 150 000 ~ 25 0000.. who knows even more.<BR/><BR/>Figures isn't any issues as long we know people are standing up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-80163897030707696202008-09-01T14:02:00.000+08:002008-09-01T14:02:00.000+08:00"despite any solid evidence to back up their theor..."despite any solid evidence to back up their theories."<BR/><BR/>Freudian slip? I'm sure they mean "lack of any solid evidence."B.BarNavihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07860632239759681393noreply@blogger.com