tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post2891371999170332255..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: Gov't Rejects Referendum on ECFAMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-8202022748998206662010-06-08T13:57:08.253+08:002010-06-08T13:57:08.253+08:00@taiwanews said...
Anonymous ppl grow some ba...<b> @taiwanews said...<br /> Anonymous ppl grow some balls and post a name. </b><br /><br />@taiwanews, thanks for your rather ungentlemanly and somewhat crudely stated opinion on posting anonymously. <br /><br />Unfortunately, if I express my somewhat extreme ideas on TI with my usual online identity I would be putting my livelihood on the line. If I create another identity that would be more fictitious than posting anonymously. <br /><br />Your logic that each poster should use an ID reminds me of China's proposed laws that all posters and blogs must use real names. That of course is an extremely effective way to reduce any criticism of that regime. <br /><br />With your mindset presented here, it would not be a great leap of logic to assume that you may be a likely candidate for a job with China's Internet censors.<br /><br />If Michael states that only posts with IDs are permissible, I will honor his decision. Until then, I won't respect your attempt to impose rules on this forum.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-46037149917026969392010-06-07T20:53:23.608+08:002010-06-07T20:53:23.608+08:00Anonymous ppl grow some balls and post a name.Anonymous ppl grow some balls and post a name.@taiwanewshttp://twitter.com/taiwanewsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-14859960098787223442010-06-07T16:37:44.791+08:002010-06-07T16:37:44.791+08:00Rather than just reading something like the China ...<b>Rather than just reading something like the China Post, it might be wise to also check the Taipei Times and Taiwan News</b><br /><br />ROFL. The Taipei Times and Taiwan News are just as error-ridden and biased as the China Post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-88932575239473610482010-06-07T12:48:09.206+08:002010-06-07T12:48:09.206+08:00As for the other point, look at the English-langua...<b>As for the other point, look at the English-language press in Taiwan from a couple of weeks ago. Mentioned was a restart of negotiations with Singapore amongst others.</b><br /><br />Thanks, this is the first time in in this discussion that you have actually offered a fact rather than an unsubstantiated opinion. But, then, it was made easy for you, LOL.<br /><br />Still, what is your take on these talks going well when Beijing throws in monkey wrenches like this:<br />http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/2010/06/ma-we-need-ecfa-for-other-ftas-beijing.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-91784838790152693742010-06-07T12:37:20.541+08:002010-06-07T12:37:20.541+08:00"Taiwan is not negotiating to (re)unite with ...<b>"Taiwan is not negotiating to (re)unite with China, or have a single currency, or free movement of people, or a parliament etc." </b><br /><br />Apparently you are unaware of the fact that many people in Taiwan are upset because EFCA certainly is going to amount to more than an economic agreement. If I am not incorrect, on this very blog there are links to China's leaders saying that ECFA is the first step to unification. Add to this the fact that many livelihoods are at stake, and you may begin to understand the support by both blues and greens for a referendum.<br /><br />I am not sure where you are located, but it seems you do not have a pulse on what is actual reality on the ground in Taiwan. Rather than just reading something like the China Post, it might be wise to also check the Taipei Times and Taiwan News. In this way you can get a more balanced view of the situation, and you can start exercising your ability to ferret out reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-79192622949166619892010-06-07T09:47:27.150+08:002010-06-07T09:47:27.150+08:00Anon 10.20 - The key point being political. EU is ...<b>Anon 10.20</b> - The key point being political. EU is much more than an economic or trade agreement. ECFA is only economic not political. Taiwan is not negotiating to (re)unite with China, or have a single currency, or free movement of people, or a parliament etc.<br /><br /><b>Anon 10.34</b> - My bad, I thought you meant with countries other than China. The negotiation process with China is still ongoing. <br /><br />As for the other point, look at the English-language press in Taiwan from a couple of weeks ago. Mentioned was a restart of negotiations with Singapore amongst others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-80197483608738488342010-06-06T22:34:14.502+08:002010-06-06T22:34:14.502+08:00What economic agreements are you talking about?
...<b>What economic agreements are you talking about? </b><br /><br />You could start with this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/taiwan/3377847/China-and-Taiwan-sign-trade-agreements.html<br /><br />Then you could use Google and find over 90 others signed with China in two years......<br /><br />Meanwhile, perhaps you could actually provide some facts to substantiate this claim. "So far that's proceeding well, and as a result talks are under way with other countries that had stalled under the DPP." What countries are you talking about?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-77907356355043154182010-06-06T22:20:35.840+08:002010-06-06T22:20:35.840+08:00"Apples and oranges.
Joining the EU is joini...<b>"Apples and oranges.<br /><br />Joining the EU is joining a regional political grouping. Taiwan isn't doing that, it's negotiating an economic agreement. Big difference." </b><br /><br />I will not be buying many apples or oranges from you as you seem a bit confused on what is what. <br /><br />According to Wikipedia "The European Union (EU) is an economic and political union of 27 member states,[7] located primarily in Europe. Committed to regional integration, the EU was established by the Treaty of Maastricht in 1993 upon the foundations of the European Communities.[8] With over 500 million citizens,[9] the EU combined generated an estimated 28% share (US$ 16.5 trillion) of the nominal and about 21% (US$14.8 trillion) of the PPP gross world product in 2009.[10]<br /><br />The EU has developed a single market through a standardised system of laws which apply in all member states, ensuring the free movement of people, goods, services, and capital.[11] It maintains common policies on trade,[12] agriculture, fisheries[13] and regional development.[14]"<br /><br />The premise of your argument here is invalid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36817520080774526702010-06-06T20:56:42.835+08:002010-06-06T20:56:42.835+08:00Hmm, of the past economic agreements made under th...<b>Hmm, of the past economic agreements made under the Ma government, has there been actual due process and then ratification by the legislature?</b><br /><br />What economic agreements are you talking about? I don't think there have been any signed since Ma came to power, as his 2008 campaign platform was to fix cross-strait relations first. So far that's proceeding well, and as a result talks are under way with other countries that had stalled under the DPP.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-88073642496425516712010-06-06T20:51:12.157+08:002010-06-06T20:51:12.157+08:00Oh, and what about the European countries that had...<b>Oh, and what about the European countries that had referendums to decide whether or not to join the EU?</b><br /><br />Apples and oranges.<br /><br />Joining the EU is joining a regional political grouping. Taiwan isn't doing that, it's negotiating an economic agreement. Big difference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36113068388594831132010-06-06T20:04:36.361+08:002010-06-06T20:04:36.361+08:00You won't know the contents until after it'...You won't know the contents until after it's signed <b>(and before it passes the legislature)</b> because the negotiations are necessarily confidential.<br /><br />Hmm, of the past economic agreements made under the Ma government, has there been actual due process and then ratification by the legislature? Perhaps you are privy to some secret proceedings in the Legislative Yuan that passed under the radar of Taiwan's overzealous media.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-62780874790060210372010-06-06T19:41:41.455+08:002010-06-06T19:41:41.455+08:00Probably every bilateral trade agreement ever sign...<b>Probably every bilateral trade agreement ever signed by any country has followed the same process, so why should Taiwan and China be any different?</b><br /><br />Perhaps one reason there should be a difference is that no agreement with China is purely an economic agreement, especially ECFA, if one is to believe the words of China's leaders. <br /><br />As for the necessity of secrecy, perhaps you should follow more recent developments in balancing the need for negotiating secretly with the public's right to know. You might find this link to be of some interest: http://www.jstor.org/pss/4099448<br /><br />Oh, and what about the European countries that had referendums to decide whether or not to join the EU?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-43719216264001415452010-06-06T18:42:26.553+08:002010-06-06T18:42:26.553+08:00@Anon 3.03pm - SOP in negotiating is that you don&...@Anon 3.03pm - SOP in negotiating is that you don't tip your hand to the other side in advance. During negotiations, publicizing it to one's own citizens is the same as telling the other country what's up your sleeve. Probably every bilateral trade agreement ever signed by any country has followed the same process, so why should Taiwan and China be any different?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-7169360569281042422010-06-06T15:03:29.798+08:002010-06-06T15:03:29.798+08:00You won't know the contents until after it'...<b>You won't know the contents until after it's signed (and before it passes the legislature) because the negotiations are necessarily confidential.</b><br /><br />Have you asked yourself why the "negotiations are necessarily confidential"? What other countries negotiate economic agreements and keep them secret from their citizens? Better yet, please explain why these negotiations are "necessarily confidential"!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-35487277092505213442010-06-06T09:43:27.265+08:002010-06-06T09:43:27.265+08:00Thanks for the kind words. Although you can and do...Thanks for the kind words. Although you can and do write much better analysis than me on a regular basis.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13061413827755873948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-80423124295841440212010-06-05T22:11:36.943+08:002010-06-05T22:11:36.943+08:00Calling for referendum now is simply partisan poli...<b>Calling for referendum now is simply partisan politicking and has nothing to do with what's best for the country. </b><br /><br />It's just partisan politicking. That's why majorities in both Blue and Green polls support it.<br /><br />ECFA too is pro-China partisan politicking.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-20922208958380487212010-06-05T07:26:29.900+08:002010-06-05T07:26:29.900+08:00What's the point? You can't hold a referen...What's the point? You can't hold a referendum until people know the contents on an ECFA, otherwise they have nothing to base their vote on. You won't know the contents until after it's signed (and before it passes the legislature) because the negotiations are necessarily confidential. Calling for referendum now is simply partisan politicking and has nothing to do with what's best for the country. <br /><br />Wait until it's signed, review it and then call for a referendum if necessary. <br /><br />Alternatively, wait until 2012 and if people are against ECFA then, the DPP will easily gain a majority and pull out of the agreement or renegotiate it. NBD.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com