tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post1757595289485184728..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: What the Health Care Debacle Teaches About the future of US-Taiwan RelationsMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-75713153835774861162009-12-21T21:38:37.948+08:002009-12-21T21:38:37.948+08:00Every country regulates other countries citizens b...Every country regulates other countries citizens based on the danger or threat that they pose to their nation. Everything from visas to immigration quotas to drivers licenses to taxes--are you proposing that countries should treat citizens and non-citizens all completely alike?<br /><br />China is a huge threat to Taiwan. The vast majority of illegal immigrants and illegal workers in Taiwan are from China, and this does not even consider the danger that Chinese spies pose.<br /><br />No I am not arguing that PRC residents receive the same treatment as ROC nationals, I am only arguing that LEGAL residents in Taiwan with PRC citizenship are entitled to the same treatment as other foreign citizens. For example they should not be excluded from health care benefits available to all other foreign citizens.<br />This has nothing to do with illegal immigrants or workers (or spies who I bet are almost entirely ROC citizens-they are the ones who have access to sensitive information).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-41801695608165373432009-12-21T20:40:05.993+08:002009-12-21T20:40:05.993+08:00Basically, what the anon above says.
Thanks for ...Basically, what the anon above says. <br /><br />Thanks for the apology. <br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-30541572350357214462009-12-21T17:31:22.561+08:002009-12-21T17:31:22.561+08:00This whole discussion is nuts. Every country regu...This whole discussion is nuts. Every country regulates other countries citizens based on the danger or threat that they pose to their nation. Everything from visas to immigration quotas to drivers licenses to taxes--are you proposing that countries should treat citizens and non-citizens all completely alike?<br /><br />China is a huge threat to Taiwan. The vast majority of illegal immigrants and illegal workers in Taiwan are from China, and this does not even consider the danger that Chinese spies pose.<br /><br />I know of NO country that acts that way, and until we are all conquered into one super nation (boy is that a scary thought), I find it perfectly justified that countries differentiate between citizens and non-citizens, and to differentiate among different countries. As long as it's within a basic standard of human rights and not racially based, and is based on actual, real threats, then you really can't call it discrimination, unless you want to argue for the complete abolishment of borders themselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-16243163702738891972009-12-21T14:03:12.721+08:002009-12-21T14:03:12.721+08:00Clearly, when you put up troll-bait like "wil...Clearly, when you put up troll-bait like "will the blogger condemn..." you consign yourself to a certain demographic.<br /><br />I only posted that in response to being called a jerk (by another poster), and your rather snarky response to my initial post. I'm sorry you thought I was trolling.<br /><br />My heart bleeds for them, and as soon as China grows up and treats Taiwan normally, I'm sure Taiwan will be happy to treat them normally as well. In any case their allies now govern, so this whole discussion is basically moot.<br /><br />So you think it is acceptable to discriminate against a citizen of a given country because you disagree with that country's policy? Would that also apply to regime opponents? How will this help you achieve your political objectives?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-17095387169149300922009-12-21T13:47:31.993+08:002009-12-21T13:47:31.993+08:00Michael: Clearly by calling people trolls and insu...<b>Michael: Clearly by calling people trolls and insulting them, you are making them unwelcome.</b><br /><br />Clearly, when you put up troll-bait like "will the blogger condemn..." you consign yourself to a certain demographic. <br /><br /><b>There is no excuse for discrimination against any group of legal residents of Taiwan. This is not the only type of discrimination PRC citizens have faced. The DPP forced spouses from the PRC to wait an absurdly long time to get permission to work legally (much longer than those from other countries).</b><br /><br />My heart bleeds for them, and as soon as China grows up and treats Taiwan normally, I'm sure Taiwan will be happy to treat them normally as well. In any case their allies now govern, so this whole discussion is basically moot.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-51926442727730784602009-12-21T10:25:35.817+08:002009-12-21T10:25:35.817+08:00Michael: Clearly by calling people trolls and insu...Michael: Clearly by calling people trolls and insulting them, you are making them unwelcome.<br />There is no excuse for discrimination against any group of legal residents of Taiwan. This is not the only type of discrimination PRC citizens have faced. The DPP forced spouses from the PRC to wait an absurdly long time to get permission to work legally (much longer than those from other countries).<br />As for exploitation of foreign labourers- I fully agree. If you make a post about that subject I will add my thoughts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-72004583673043732982009-12-21T10:14:46.477+08:002009-12-21T10:14:46.477+08:00Well, even our constitutions can be changed, I don...<b>Well, even our constitutions can be changed, I don't see how you can believe a simple law can't be changed in the future.</b><br /><br />Can is much different from "is likely to." Sure, they can change the bill to roll back the many compromises during the past 6 months, but the likelihood of that occurring in the next 5 years is unlikely in my eyes.<br /><br />If the right (or Liebermann) were to work in good faith on policy grounds, and based on the will of their constituents, sure it'd be much more likely. But given the growing partisanship in the last decade, I get more and more skeptical.<br /><br />I'm sure the majority people I fundamentally disagree with aren't evil, but they oft seem to work on theories that seem to haven been proven wrong by history. I'm sure Reagan was not evil at heart when he said Medicare would lead us to a Soviet-style 100% planned economy, but that doesn't make him less wrong.<br /><br />And, yes, people love socialized medicine, even Medicare, but that doesn't stop these "non-evil" folks from trying to cut it.Robert R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12956389352825464115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-24334525140046424562009-12-21T07:30:10.226+08:002009-12-21T07:30:10.226+08:00I am not trolling, but it appears you only welcome...<b>I am not trolling, but it appears you only welcome comments from people who agree with you. No wonder I decide to post anonymously.</b><br /><br />Hey troll, your comments are here, along with many others that don't agree. In this set of comments alone there are at least three people who don't agree with me. D'oh! But if you troll, you'll be labeled a troll. Accusations like "you only welcome comments from people who agree with you" are pure unadulterated troll. Time to grow up, doncha think?<br /><br />There is nothing "discriminatory" about taking political action against the citizens of a nation that has sworn to kill and maim your own citizens, suppress your democracy and your culture, and steal your land. You'd have to be both utterly heartless and totally ignorant of history to adopt another position. Not to mention ethically challenged.<br /><br />If you want to blather about discrimination, invest some time in exploring what happens to foreign laborers here.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-56251237804512172812009-12-21T00:21:24.248+08:002009-12-21T00:21:24.248+08:00I've generally been happy with Krugman's c...<b>I've generally been happy with Krugman's comments. However, I'm not so certain that the bill can be modified later, considering the trouble modifying it now.</b><br /><br />Well, even our constitutions can be changed, I don't see how you can believe a simple law can't be changed in the future. All countries that passed universal health care likes it if not loving it. I predict US will be the same, and Republicans and Libertarians knows this. That's why they are fighting so hard against it because they know after the bill passed people will know that they are full of sh!t. <br /><br />Unless you are like some people on this blog just hates life and believed that people who control the power are all evil, have no heart, and out to screw ordinary people. Contrary to public believes, a lot of individuals from powerful families in the US lives an ordinary lives just like rest of us.Artynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-22738185107955235222009-12-20T15:55:08.306+08:002009-12-20T15:55:08.306+08:00Michael- I wrote all the posts. As you admit, bann...Michael- I wrote all the posts. As you admit, banning PRC citizens legally resident in Taiwan from healthcare is not effective or smart political action. <br /><br />I took exception to the comment below, which is why I posted something:<br /><br />"However, the sticker shock aside, the Ma government has also decided we will also be paying for the healthcare children of communist Chinese who are living here."<br /><br />This comment was both inaccurate in the sense that PRC citizens resident in Taiwan also pay into the system through taxes and premiums, and also discriminatory.<br />I am not trolling, but it appears you only welcome comments from people who agree with you. No wonder I decide to post anonymously.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-67453279950491056562009-12-20T10:12:43.977+08:002009-12-20T10:12:43.977+08:00Anon 11:14 said: "To promote unification, the...Anon 11:14 said: "To promote unification, they will do anything, including making it as easy as possible for Taiwanese to marry Chinese..."<br /><br />Maybe not even require marriage. I think the mainlanders are being handed citizenship without marriage--just bring your families and your cash. It so easy to unify by just allowing the Chicoms to do what they did to HK: quickly and quietly move in!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-30844796524176296782009-12-19T23:14:07.411+08:002009-12-19T23:14:07.411+08:00"Michael-please stop calling everyone who dis...<b>"Michael-please stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a troll."</b><br /><br />Nice! A troll comment that's meant to provoke a reaction from Michael if I've ever seen one. And you got it! Congrats.<br /><br />On the issue itself--I find it disgusting that there's ANY language that singles out special treatment for Chinese ("Mainland") spouses and their kids. There are no special clauses for any other foreigners, and if it's about equal treatment, then Chinese spouses and their kids can be covered by existing laws and that should be the end of it.<br /><br />But we can see of course how the KMT is back to their old ways of legalized, governmental social engineering. To promote unification, they will do anything, including making it as easy as possible for Taiwanese to marry Chinese. If you take a couple of steps back, it's not so dissimilar from the degrading of the Taiwanese language and culture and the institution of chiefs in Aboriginal tribes that did not have them. All that social engineering so that the KMT can have greater control and achieve their religious goals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-91107556602592650992009-12-19T21:43:20.237+08:002009-12-19T21:43:20.237+08:00Michael-please stop calling everyone who disagrees...<b>Michael-please stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a troll.</b><br /><br />I only call trolls, trolls. Do you realize how many people disagree with me in the course of a week? <br /><br />Why do you think that original post was there? Pure trolling. <br /><br /><b>Banning PRC citizens who are legally resident in Taiwan from health insurance is not effective political action. Beijing will not care one bit. But it will effect the health and well-being of many residents of Taiwan.</b><br /><br />I didn't say it was (1) effective or (2) smart, so why are you trying to muddy the waters? But the troll who posted on it tried to claim it was discrimination. Smart or stupid, political action is not discrimination. And people who deliberately confuse the two are just trolls.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-6094476356207926532009-12-19T15:04:04.684+08:002009-12-19T15:04:04.684+08:00Michael-please stop calling everyone who disagrees...Michael-please stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a troll. Banning PRC citizens who are legally resident in Taiwan from health insurance is not effective political action. Beijing will not care one bit. But it will effect the health and well-being of many residents of Taiwan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-60854998500262812222009-12-19T14:51:44.518+08:002009-12-19T14:51:44.518+08:00Our health reform bill has regulations. Also, the ...<b>Our health reform bill has regulations. Also, the bill can be modified later if it needs to be. Paul Krugman blog about it, and I think he is smarter than average Americans, and can put it way better than I am.</b><br /><br />I've generally been happy with Krugman's comments. However, I'm not so certain that the bill can be modified later, considering the trouble modifying it now. But I hope it can be fixed before some of it's big deficiencies start causing problems. (i.e. the ability to charge much much higher premiums for those with pre-existing conditions... This is only a bit better than not being covered at all. OK, much better, but when tied to the mandate, it can cause problems for a lot of the people that are just above the subsidy limit).<br /><br />As for the substance of the regulations, it's hard to discuss intelligently because the bill has changed so much since the last version was made public. Who knows what's <i>actually</i> in there now?<br /><br />But I'm also sympathetic to Howard Dean who says to kill this bill and go to reconciliation. Truthfully, I don't know why they can't do <b>both</b>. Cut out some of the bad crap from this bill AND pass some of the more progressive parts in a separate reconciliation bill.Robert R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12956389352825464115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-79026773085300301732009-12-19T13:13:34.926+08:002009-12-19T13:13:34.926+08:00I think you are confusing the policy of the govern...<b>I think you are confusing the policy of the government in Beijing with the position of individual PRC citizens in Taiwan (who have no input into that government policy). Discrimination which ever way you look at it..</b><br /><br />Sure, and you're just a hopelessly full of shit troll who deliberately confuses political action with discrimination.<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-50469741824581980202009-12-19T09:12:02.764+08:002009-12-19T09:12:02.764+08:00Arty, sure the Swiss have a good all-private healt...<b>Arty, sure the Swiss have a good all-private health sector (or so I'm told), but they're also regulated out the wazoo, and effective & thorough regulation in the US is even less likely than a public option...</b><br /><br />Our health reform bill has regulations. Also, the bill can be modified later if it needs to be. Paul Krugman blog about it, and I think he is smarter than average Americans, and can put it way better than I am.<br /><br />http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/<br /><br />People think they are smart but actually are not, shouldn't blog. I don't blog by the way, just commenting. Obama did everything I wanted the moment he pushes the health bill through.Artynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-69052425409820859082009-12-19T09:11:29.746+08:002009-12-19T09:11:29.746+08:00I believe the original post about the Chinese usin...I believe the original post about the Chinese using the Taiwanese medical system refers to a news report that claims that the Chinese are not paying into it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-80077297708648335372009-12-18T22:36:12.280+08:002009-12-18T22:36:12.280+08:00Sure, as soon as the one group of legal residents ...Sure, as soon as the one group of legal residents takes down their missiles pointed at Taiwan, renounces the use of force, and renounces all attempts to annex us.<br /><br />Michael-legal PRC residents in Taiwan do not have any missiles pointed at us, nor are they in any position to renounce the use of force on Taiwan. I think you are confusing the policy of the government in Beijing with the position of individual PRC citizens in Taiwan (who have no input into that government policy). Discrimination which ever way you look at it..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-2840737560189278802009-12-18T22:01:20.287+08:002009-12-18T22:01:20.287+08:00Other people in the green crowd have made similar ...<b>Other people in the green crowd have made similar calls. I wonder if the site owner repudiates such calls for discrimination against one group of legal residents?</b><br /><br />Sure, as soon as the one group of legal residents takes down their missiles pointed at Taiwan, renounces the use of force, and renounces all attempts to annex us.<br /><br />Until then, my position is that each person must decide for himself how they will respond to oppression and aggression, and to citizens of nations that oppress and aggress against them.<br /><br />As I have noted before, there are many ways to handle others demanding that you die so they can annex your land. If the Chinese meet those different ways, perhaps it will dawn on them how evil they are being, and they will change their minds.<br /><br />Note that I am not advocating that Chinese here be denied health care. I personally don't support that position. But I'm not going to condemn or judge people for responding to people who demand that they submit or die by excluding them from privileges that other citizens of non-threatening nations receive. <br /><br />Surely you are not dense enough to miss the justice in that?<br /><br />MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-56595879570648563422009-12-18T21:56:55.245+08:002009-12-18T21:56:55.245+08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-45417254035639840182009-12-18T20:18:43.325+08:002009-12-18T20:18:43.325+08:00"Is this really too much for the green crowd ..."Is this really too much for the green crowd to accept?"<br /><br /><br />Jerk! Who said I was green????Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-36051383840264407942009-12-18T17:09:20.328+08:002009-12-18T17:09:20.328+08:00Shock! Chinese people legally resident in Taiwan w...Shock! Chinese people legally resident in Taiwan will be offered the same treatment as other foreign residents. They will also be paying into the system like anyone else. Is this really too much for the green crowd to accept?<br /><br />Yes, because clearly, one commenter on a blog represents the entire green crowd.<br /><br />Other people in the green crowd have made similar calls. I wonder if the site owner repudiates such calls for discrimination against one group of legal residents?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-2559912934279649112009-12-18T16:53:47.995+08:002009-12-18T16:53:47.995+08:00"As for Ma, even if he is the Devil incarnate...<b>"As for Ma, even if he is the Devil incarnate and is planning to sell Taiwan out for a diamond-studded pension plan, he will want chips to trade to get it. Arms are a good source of chips."</b><br /><br />But he's not out for personal benefit. He's out for ideological satisfaction. He will be happy if Taiwan is forced, out of a weak military position relative to China, must accept unification on some level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-54579216440071617952009-12-18T15:59:24.459+08:002009-12-18T15:59:24.459+08:00Shock! Chinese people legally resident in Taiwan w...<b>Shock! Chinese people legally resident in Taiwan will be offered the same treatment as other foreign residents. They will also be paying into the system like anyone else. Is this really too much for the green crowd to accept?</b><br /><br />Yes, because clearly, one commenter on a blog represents the entire green crowd.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.com