tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post115095327027810488..comments2023-10-22T18:25:39.688+08:00Comments on The View from Taiwan: The Politics of Fourth Grade: Kickbacks and CorruptionMichael Turtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1151289631357870802006-06-26T10:40:00.000+08:002006-06-26T10:40:00.000+08:00The whole problem started with the Legalists in an...The whole problem started with the Legalists in ancient China who created a socirty so horrible that Confucius rebelled at the thought of law being useful...instead it's all relationships and if the emperor faces South all will be well.<BR/><BR/>Cool phrases ill-remembered:<BR/><BR/>legalist philosphy was "make peacetime so hard, the people rejoice to go to war."<BR/><BR/>Confucian era saying: "Teach a peasant to read and he becomes a lawyer." (as in DO NOT teach them to read.)<BR/><BR/><BR/>BTW, my mom compared my 11 person company's fed ex rates with those of the State of California. Guess who got the better deal on freight?Red Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699964464336470134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1151033091564014892006-06-23T11:24:00.000+08:002006-06-23T11:24:00.000+08:00Explanations of everyday events are invariably der...<B>Explanations of everyday events are invariably derived from explanations a Taiwan society rooted in 'Chineseness' or "Confucianism and fail to take into account the way in which modern life was formed during KMT and Japanese colonialism.</B><BR/><BR/>Actually, I was referring to scholars with two differing ethical orientations. I wasn't making an argument from history. The perspectives are all modern.Michael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1151031156796693162006-06-23T10:52:00.000+08:002006-06-23T10:52:00.000+08:00Scott Sommers wrote: In addition, it may very well...Scott Sommers wrote: In addition, it may very well be that what you seeing as Guanxi is an adaptation to modern conditions that Taiwanese culture has no traditional way to handle.<BR/><BR/>Michael Turton wrote: That's pretty much what I'm saying, no?<BR/><BR/>In your statement, "a major clash between scholars with Western ethical orientations and Confucian ethical orientations is over the ethical nature of guanxi relationships" the implication seems to be that there is something inherent about Confucian society that would make Guanxi acceptable in a way that it would not be to Western thinkers. I assume that the term 'Confucian society' must be referring to a society with some historical connection to past events. This society would share properties with others that also trace their roots back to this common history.<BR/><BR/>While the story itself is really cool, the interpretation of the events falls into a trap laid by the KMT. Explanations of everyday events are invariably derived from explanations a Taiwan society rooted in 'Chineseness' or "Confucianism and fail to take into account the way in which modern life was formed during KMT and Japanese colonialism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1151018801587211402006-06-23T07:26:00.000+08:002006-06-23T07:26:00.000+08:00In fact, the exodus from rural areas to find work ...<B>In fact, the exodus from rural areas to find work is one of the dilemnas of contemporary Taiwan goverance. The life styles of the women involved in your wife's group may be common, but it is certainly not the statistical norm.</B><BR/><BR/>I guess I implied that it was more common than it is. I'll rewrite it.<BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1151015059543752492006-06-23T06:24:00.000+08:002006-06-23T06:24:00.000+08:00n addition, it may very well be that what you seei...<B>n addition, it may very well be that what you seeing as Guanxi is an adaptation to modern conditions that Taiwanese culture has no traditional way to handle.</B><BR/><BR/>That's pretty much what I'm saying, no?<BR/><BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1150999673664403952006-06-23T02:07:00.000+08:002006-06-23T02:07:00.000+08:00Michael, I'm not certain how much this says about ...Michael, I'm not certain how much this says about "Western ethical orientations and Confucian ethical orientations". While the people in your wife's group may have never moved from the place they were born, this certainly does not reflect the norm in Taiwan society. In fact, the exodus from rural areas to find work is one of the dilemnas of contemporary Taiwan goverance. The life styles of the women involved in your wife's group may be common, but it is certainly not the statistical norm.<BR/><BR/>In addition, it may very well be that what you seeing as Guanxi is an adaptation to modern conditions that Taiwanese culture has no traditional way to handle. A sinilar example often cited as an eample of corruption and guanxi networks is the cash pay offs associated with elections. This is a relatively recent innovation in Taiwan voting patterns, developed by your friends and mine in the KMT during Martial Law. Vote buying became endemic not because it has historially occurred in Taiwan elections - since it has not - but because the cost of running campaigns during Martial Law became prohibitive and the KMT say this system as an effective way to control outcomes.<BR/><BR/>For more information on this, see Shelley Rigger, Politics in Taiwan: Voting for DemocracyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1150975634027011082006-06-22T19:27:00.000+08:002006-06-22T19:27:00.000+08:00Karl is right. What's the first thing they say whe...Karl is right. What's the first thing they say when you walk into a bookstore and say you're from a school?<BR/><BR/>"Oh, we give a 10% discount to school purchases."<BR/><BR/>Clearly the bookseller has a discount for school and bulk purchases, that's SOP. Assuming that there was only a 10% discount -- then somewhere in the chain, a buyer and seller have split $10,000. Or else the buyer was totally incompetent, and despite working for a school, didn't know that booksellers routinely give discounts to bulk purchases.<BR/><BR/>Don't think I buy the latter theory, though.<BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael Turtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974403961870976346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1150968667621435452006-06-22T17:31:00.000+08:002006-06-22T17:31:00.000+08:00Because the school is buying books wholesale, not ...Because the school is buying books wholesale, not at cover price?Chaonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716593360671034412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1150966010163563432006-06-22T16:46:00.000+08:002006-06-22T16:46:00.000+08:00Excellent post on another very strange particulari...Excellent post on another very strange particularity of our environment.<BR/><BR/>I guess this is just part of the "offering culture" in which teacher get "lubricated" as well. I have been given most kind of food so far (can't say this was unpleasant), and been treated to dinner in some nice places by the few people i am helping :D<BR/><BR/>But i have as well seen teachers pocketing a scooter, a set of golf clubs, some holiday with a family...<BR/><BR/>So when does it become too much?<BR/><BR/>In the same fashion, i was amazed at the amount of people trying to borrow money from my "in-laws" as they are seen as kind of wealthy by the local community.<BR/>The worst is that most of the time it is a real pain to get back the money loaned, and it ends up equaling most of the time a gift of dizains of thousands of NT$.<BR/>Any experience with that Mickael?<BR/><BR/>I have to add that corruption is to be experienced nearly everywhere as you all know.<BR/>I recently had an american trade agent asking me a 0.5% kickback on a 30 000MT of steel deal, or have often been paying indian policemen to go though a roadcheck... i got to hate it when it truly equate to racket as in the policement situation.Ed en Vadrouillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15796945550286251991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10698887.post-1150961390847226012006-06-22T15:29:00.000+08:002006-06-22T15:29:00.000+08:00This is a terrific post, but forgive me, I am no a...This is a terrific post, but forgive me, I am no accountant, where was the graft?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com